The Problem of Quake's Player Base Size

[scar3crow]

The problem of getting players into Quake multiplayer isn't a question of sheer volume, but of funnels and retention. Its not hard to get pak0.pak and pak1.pak on a player's computer, legally or illegally. In fact the proliferation of Steam, Quake being on it, (and its non-sale price is not restrictive) means that the number of potential new players is going to be much higher than it was in 2005 or 2000, and that is without violating any law. But we haven't seen a wave of new players, there are fewer servers, and they sit uninhabited largely, requiring scheduling in many cases just to get enough people on at the same time.

The reason for this is actually multiple reasons, different gateway problems, and retention problems. These players are typically not those who were around and into gaming when Quake came out, they are used to more recent releases. These releases have in-game server browsers, in-menu custom options for mods in some cases, better in-game depiction of real time options (such as skills for a class in a mod, etc) and frankly, a lack of confusion about paths. There is no CoD4world along with CoD4mp and CoD4sp. You land in Quake and the immediate question for multiplayer, beyond finding a server, is netQuake or QuakeWorld? This is a silly question today, most players participating are on broadband, and though there are differences in physics and for modding, these are differences one would be more aware of after they have become greatly experienced with Quake (and thus a moot issue unto themselves) or if they entered modding, another step taken by people after they have completed entering the player base.

QuakeWorld and netQuake are a preference of those who have been around, and those using the servers and making the mods. This should be a completely transparent issue to the player who is looking to simply play online.

Engine, this is another problem they will never run into playing almost any other game out there. They buy the game on Steam, let it download and install itself, run it, and select multiplayer. Notice the ease of "run it." There is no question here, no ez versus FTE versus DP versus Direct versus Joe versus etc, and when you ask a new user to make that call as well, you are immediately putting yet another filter on the player base. A player should be able to, after having purchased Quake, Google Quake Multiplayer and found a simple instruction on any number of sites pointing them to ONE additional installation. No more. They've already payed for the game, why should they be asked to take any more steps to simply access a component of the original title, which they are now a legal owner of?

They need to be able to find this, run a self-installer, launch the EXE it includes and see a server browser, which populates servers sorted in a clear fashion, and notes mods and maps, and downloads these. Within them, the servers and/or the mods should note in a clean and clear way (here CSQC would go a long way, a centerprint menu isn't very friendly) what options the player has to work with and how to get started. Mouselook should be enabled, always run on, sensitivity set to something decent. They shouldn't have to go to the console to get into a game, kill a few of the enemy, and capture a flag or get in queue for the next round. It is simply difficult for an uninitiated player to even get this far, and the situation is even worse in game.

"Pwning noobs." Noobs are the reproduction rate of a community which keeps it vibrant with personalities, ideas and experiences. One starts as a noob. Yes, it is nice to win in a Quake match, but perhaps let up when you have a 20 frag lead? I'm not saying let them kill you, but let them find a weapon or armor, or get a shot off before you pound them into the ground. People new to a game understand that they are at a disadvantage, don't make the learning stages completely unpleasant, it is in your interest as a player for them to feel welcome, to get familiar, and to pose a threat - this is what makes multiplayer interesting, if you just want to "pwn", load up some BGbots, enable cheats, and bind mouse1 to "+attack; impulse 9; impulse 255" but don't bring that attitude to a match with new players and then turn around and complain about the dwindling player base.

It is not hard to legally procur Quake, so please stop with the illegal downloads, stop with all the energy put into dubiously legal GPL multiplayer only spinoffs with dodgy visuals, and put that effort into making your engines, servers, mods and maps more friendly to the uninitiated, so they can get their feet wet before discharging, and we will all have more people to frag, chat with, map and mod for, and we can keep one of the most excellent games made running for yet another fourteen years.

[leileilol]

wel said but wat is quake is it the thing the halo game are made on help please


p.s. "nquake" isn't helping really. it's just ezquake behind an installer that grabs shareware quake remotely breaching sw license. it formerly was an installer that was the full game with a 'no one cares/euros dont have credit cards and cant buy quaek!' excuse to it. Another reason why the playercount is so small is that elitist 'pro' base, you know, this kind. This is why Quake is stagnant online, and Quake2 isn't. Quake2's 10hzness scares away the twitchtweaker to rail-only who-lags-loses servers, and Quake2 never needed some shady installer to 'play online easy' either.

Believe me, I wish Quake was more popular online too, but the attempts at reviving the scene so far have been ill. We have the resources necessary - master servers, SVN repositories, archivey hoarders, the most awesomest modified id tech engine in the history of modified id tech engines, etc.

What's that one thing - TIME!!! TIME TIME TIME.

Quake3 has the same unwelcomey pro feel too BTW, but like Street Fighter II: Championship Edition, it's THE prime home of those types. OpenArena (SELF-PLUG WARNING!!) and Quake Live filled the 'casual', 'lax' gap for that game. OQPlus (ANOTHER SELF-PLUG!!!!) could've been that but there's really no interest other than myself and Qbism for it. :/ Haktoria (SELF-PLUG TRIPLE COMBO!!!) was the same principle for Hexen II/Hexenworld, with even less interest as that game is so obscure to begin with anyway and people only remember it for its out-of-the-box 3dfx MiniGL support back in the day more than anything else. Sauerbraten on the other hand (COMBO BREAKER!)... is popular just for being a 'free game' alone, and Urban Terror (DANGER DANGER DANGER) is just 'poor man's counter-strike' which is why its the most popular id tech derivative free game there is. Even the Soldier of Fortune 2 TEST is still popular today as a poor man's CS alternative.


tl;dr version: violating shareware sucks and is for scrubs; let's make something free for them to suck on. perhaps something DP based with a very friendly point-click menu interface similar to nexuiz but not freaky like nexuiz. I tried to start one last year, only got as far as a quakey-ish from scratch menu skin. It would be a csprogs/menu.dat + pk3 only (no progs.dat). Please note there is more overall interest in REMAKING QUAKE ON THE SOURCE ENGINE (bad idea) than anything to give Quake itself improvement.

[r00k]

similar to nexuiz but not freaky like nexuiz

I've thought a lot about this too. What is it about Quake Multiplayer that we could wave around that would interest new players? Nothing really. In all, my own intentions would be to bring back the old millions who used to play it back 12 years ago. Creating something using the DarkPlaces engine would be a good idea, FTE could even support it. Make a QLive clone that combines CS and maybe some big crazy MMORPFPS then we might be on to something...

Basically, it would need to take the Quake universe and hurl it into a new game, using DP.

Persistent stats, each server is a "world". Each world has teams. PEople fight in the streets, gathering weapons. Roaming from server to server swapping inventory. Ultimately to become the QuakeMasta

[scar3crow]

I'd rather not make anything for anyone to suck on regarding Quake, Nexuiz was not an alt-Quake, it was a distinct game of its own. I am not interested in creating any sort of honeypot or alternate path, but rather seeing Quake engines, servers, mods and maps keep players in mind who aren't savvy with a console and aren't used to centerprint menus but rather even development implementation across all components of the game.

Any new project such as those described will simply be another game, not Quake, and would not address the decreasing player base. It is well established that obtaining a title is not the key to the community, but rather being able to get IN to it.

If you do want to spin up your own project with certain design goals in mind, sure, but if it isn't Quake, it is by its very nature competing with Quake for players and community.

What I was trying to communicate was simply stepping up on some unification, and increasing our presentation. It isn't 1996 anymore, and some progress has been positive. Progress such as integrated server browsing, transparency of server types for the user, special rules and mods with clearly defined elements that don't involve using the console, and don't leave a player feeling stranded, or like they are going blind working through an elaborate centerprint menu. I want to evolve how we focus the community, how we funnel players for the sake of the best experience, so more players will stick around. Not simply try to get them to stick to something, but rather to help them see the quality that is Quake and its mods, by stepping up the quality of messaging.

I don't want Another Quake, I want Quake to grow.

[Spike]

if you want quake to grow, you've got to get it easy to get in to, nquake achieves this despite its issues... but in that case, the 'noobs' get on a server and get pwned repeatedly over and over again. its not fun for them, despite it being easy, and even then you don't have the dm* maps.
in the 64bit-world of today, installing quake from the cd is a nightmare, and getting a cd can also be hard. steam offers a legal path here, and a windows-based engine/mod installer really ought to be able to detect the install path, and load up a browser to the right page to push people along the path to obtaining some compatible, legal, game data. Or use openquartz or something if they don't want to have to buy anything (a large legal problem is that of textures inside otherwise-legal 3rd party bsps).
A menu.dat/csprogs.dat would go a long way to increase usability, as would direct ui improvements in the engine itself.

Ultimately, however, you have to get new players to care, and you have to get them to continue to care. If you can manage that, you'll go far.

[hondobondo]

ur pretty funny leleileielol

[SusanMDK]

It's because it's dark. When I was in school, the teacher told he didn't like Quake or Unreal because they were too much dark castles. He likes brighter games like Half-Life2. I remember people rather playing Duke Nukem, because it was more colourful and bright than Quake, even if Quake was true 3D. People complained about Doom3 that it was too much dark and repetitive same kind of places. Usually people said the Hell level was the best in it, but it was dark castle kind of level, but it was different than the rest of the game.

Well, there needs to be brightness, colour, contrast and variety to be a successfully attractive game. If you can bring all these to Quake and then show that stuff around for people, I'm sure they'll want to play it.

[Jehar]

I'm going to come out of left field here and say that the community that has persisted around this forum is not the same kind of community that persists over at, for instance, quakeworld.nu.

There's always been some gap between the people who Play to Play, and those who are more involved in modding, mapping, etc. Many mappers, including myself, couldn't shake a stick at those highly competitive communities, and would have trouble fitting in.

While those other communities have growth issues of their own, the main one I see worth addressing here is why someone would want to get into multiplayer Quake in the first place. For your average Joe, there isn't much objective reason beyond nostalgia. However, I do see a pull for everything Quake in what may seem a tangential direction, but one that pertains specifically to this community.

Simply put: turn Quake into the first steps of someone getting into mapping/modding/programming. It was that way for many of us, and as AAA titles get more and more closed off, as well as exponentially more complex, there simply needs to be something that lets people get their feet wet with game design.

scar3crow and I have discussed making a Quake SDK portal for some time, but I wanted to underline it's importance. Quake has a unique position to be the ideal learning bed for young developers. Make it easy and well documented to create content for, from a central (singular) place, and people will flock to Quake.

Now, this is off to the side of the original questions posed, but I'm willing to admit that most of the people playing Quake, be it net* or *world, play it because they have been playing it. Getting people back into playing it from outside sources would involve everything scar3crow mentioned, as well as ways to make people aware that such things even exist. That is one of the goals of tastyspleen.tv, and I'm personally going to be paying more attention to the modding/mapping aspects of Quake in the upcoming months, due to new hardware capabilities.

[Rich]

I'm a bit surprised no one has really brought up the "it's ugly" issue. I don't think the superficial tendencies of the gaming populace, to flock to whatever is most visually appealing, should be underestimated. Particularly as it concerns attracting players to Quake in its original form.

There's only so much you can do on the engine side, blocky BSP geometry and low-poly vertex morphed models just aren't going to hold up next to what we expect of current-gen games. Asset replacement projects and standalone games like Nexuiz (at least the non-commercial version) also leave a great deal to be desired, particularly in the realm of models and map geometry.

That isn't to say that those replacement projects and standalone games are poor efforts - it simply requires more resources than can be afforded to most non-commercial team efforts, to make assets with the level of aesthetic quality and complexity necessary to re-convey a game with the ideas behind Quake in a modern era. This is why I look at generic freeware FPS titles, which seem to be striving to clone games like UT3 but just falling a bit short, and can't help but think "if only they'd invested this effort in an original design and concept" to myself. But that's getting a bit off-topic.

In terms of making Quake be visually appealing under the same expectations we have of modern titles, or even scaling it back a few generations and settling for something a bit more on the level of WoW, I think the only possible solution (and it's a vague possible solution) is stylization. At least, given the artistic resource constraints that any such project is bound to face. This is the general cop-out that's also used in the commercial arena, when the art resources just don't match the scope/goals of the project.

I have no idea what a good stylistic direction would be for Quake, though. I really don't think cel-shading and trying to make it look like Quake 3 works for Quake. Given the original atmosphere and mood, it's really hard to find a cop-out way to bring it to current-gen-ish visual standards. As a MP-only game, it's certainly easy enough to re-brand it as an arena FPS with the typical simple, clean, concise (and easy to stylize) visuals of an arena FPS. But I think that immediately disqualifies it from being "Quake" in feel and atmosphere.

I suppose it seems to me like a problem with no easy solution - or rather with no tangibly possible solution, unless someone with an actual commercial budget were to sponsor the undertaking.

[scar3crow]

It's because it's dark. When I was in school, the teacher told he didn't like Quake or Unreal because they were too much dark castles. He likes brighter games like Half-Life2.

I can understand that, but monitor settings and in-game brightness settings go a long way. The only stock dm map with deep shadows is dm2, in my opinion.

While those other communities have growth issues of their own, the main one I see worth addressing here is why someone would want to get into multiplayer Quake in the first place. For your average Joe, there isn't much objective reason beyond nostalgia.

The nostalgia pool is large yes, but how about this? Quake and its mods are fun. So long as you are not getting pounded into the ground by someone bunnyhopping spawn point to spawn point, even losing is fun in it.

Ultimately, however, you have to get new players to care, and you have to get them to continue to care.

I'm a bit surprised no one has really brought up the "it's ugly" issue. I don't think the superficial tendencies of the gaming populace, to flock to whatever is most visually appealing, should be underestimated. Particularly as it concerns attracting players to Quake in its original form.

I understand where both of you are coming from, but there is the simple fact that we do have new players coming in from time to time, and old players returning. This is a combination of the nostalgia pool, and hearing that the game is good, and being willing to give it a go. However, they don't stick around. Clearly the graphics aren't a problem, otherwise they would have stopped at seeing screenshots. The problem is "QuakeWorld or NetQuake?" "which engine?", getting pounded into the ground on many servers with rude behavior, and on trying mods, just being confused about what they need to do.

A lot of people play Team Fortress 2, I imagine some of them are interested in the original mod behind it all, but if they connect to a TF server (assuming they get past the engine, server type and other barriers) they may find themselves incapable. It isn't exactly clear you need to bind "special" "+gren1" and "+gren2", but without those you will encounter strange things, and may find yourself very limited, never mind what binding actually is. This is a place where a CSQC prompt asking something such as "Select a key to activate class abilities" and "Select a key to throw a normal grenade" etc.

If the funnel ultimately discourages new players, there is no reason to widen the beginning of that funnel, simply to discourage them more firmly later on, setting in a belief of over-complication rather than simply leaving Quake in the category of "haven't played."

[frag.machine]

I'm a bit surprised no one has really brought up the "it's ugly" issue. I don't think the superficial tendencies of the gaming populace, to flock to whatever is most visually appealing, should be underestimated. Particularly as it concerns attracting players to Quake in its original form.

I understand where both of you are coming from, but there is the simple fact that we do have new players coming in from time to time, and old players returning. This is a combination of the nostalgia pool, and hearing that the game is good, and being willing to give it a go. However, they don't stick around. Clearly the graphics aren't a problem, otherwise they would have stopped at seeing screenshots. The problem is "QuakeWorld or NetQuake?" "which engine?", getting pounded into the ground on many servers with rude behavior, and on trying mods, just being confused about what they need to do.

I'd love to see a revamped Quake, but not tied to the arcane glquake engine or derivatives, or just reskins over the old artwork. I drooled at the Doom3 and F.E.A.R. mods, and I bet many people out there did the same. But I reckon the lack of theme consistency makes this a quite dangerous task.

[scar3crow]

If one were to engage in the much larger task of just creating another product, which would divide things and exacerbate the problem, it would still have to provide the exact same services I speak of for Quake, on top of the development requirements. Even if successful, it would possibly just muddy the waters.

Some players are interested in Quake, we see that from time to time, but the myriad decisions they have to make and actions they have to take to get the game into a state they can take for granted from other titles turns them away. If they were not turned away, and they had a good experience, that would be an additional person speaking of the enjoyment they get from the game to their friends - a perspective said friends would listen to, because it comes from someone who isn't part of that old community, but "just another gamer."

I think streamlining the funnel to play, and shaping up the presentation of things (in terms of menus and messaging, not texture resolution and polycount) would be the single largest step a community could take toward growing, beyond opening up to modding, which is a large part of what has given Quake the legs it has been using for all these years.

[Rich]

On the smaller scale of just making it more welcoming to people already willing to try the game on its existing merits, I'd tend to agree that in-game server browsers are probably a very important thing. I actually had one in the Quake Royale client, along with a custom master server.

I believe I ended up using a new protocol entirely for the master-client communication, though (but not the master-server, it remained the same), and I can't recall why. Maybe I couldn't find any info on the master-client protocol. I recall asking someone I knew at id at the time if he could get me any info regarding the QW master server, and he asked around and ended up saying it was...lost? For some reason or another, he couldn't get anything to me. I really don't remember why anymore. But if I hadn't been such a lazy ass, I could've just as easily figured it out by installing gamespy and looking at packet binary to and from an existing master, I suppose.

I'm kind of surprised in-game server browsers aren't standard for the major clients already. Are there technical reasons for this? Are there even any original master servers around anymore?

[Spike]

tips for pinging servers:
if you're going to query them yourself, create 64 or so separate sockets. yes. really. lots of nat routers suck big time.
get some redundant masters. they keep dying. make sure they're persistant.
don't be tempted to ask NQ servers for player names or specific rules. its too vile.
don't forget to poll nearby servers.
don't bother with raw/icmp sockets, its pointless and usually broken.
fix your engine to not have a stupid broken concept of a single possible server port at any one time, especially if you're polling 20 different servers on the same ip.

Alternatively, say screw that for a laugh, implement libcurl or something, and parse the html comments from http://quakeone.com/servers/ and be done with it.

[mh]

I'm kind of surprised in-game server browsers aren't standard for the major clients already. Are there technical reasons for this? Are there even any original master servers around anymore?

NQ doesn't have master servers, otherwise it would have been done a long time ago.

Alternatively, say screw that for a laugh, implement libcurl or something, and parse the html comments from http://quakeone.com/servers/ and be done with it.

Yup, this seems the most sensible way of doing it. Now, if a friendlier-to-parse version of the quakeone.com list could be made available things would really rock.