InsideQC Forums

mh wrote:I'm not personally interested in an integrated Quake editor (I don't view DirectQ as either a mappers or a modders engine) but it would be a neat project for someone who is.

A intriguing idea would be some kind of API integrating map editors and engines, allowing for real time visualization of uncompiled maps. THAT would be really badass.

uh ... yup that would be neat

Reply from Yahn.

You can do whatever you want with it. Hosting it in icculus or sourceforge would be fine. It should just have the BSD (do whatever you want) style license.

Yahn

So there we have it. It's official, the license is BSD-style free software.

I suggest the three clause BSD license which is in common use today. Here it is, just put this in a file called COPYING or LICENSE.

Copyright (c) 2012, Yahn Bernier, Sort, ViciouZ, Your Name Here
All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

* Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
* Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
* Neither the names of the copyright holders nor the
names of contributors may be used to endorse or promote products
derived from this software without specific prior written permission.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND
ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED
WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY
DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
(INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND
ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT
(INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS
SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

Should I talk to Ryan at icculus.org and set up an SVN repo? I've done so before.

The license allows it to be hosted or released anywhere, of course. A repo is just nice to prevent it from developing into several sub-forks again.

Edit: Filled in <organization> and <copyright holder>.

Assuming one of the first things you consider doing is grabbing some code from:

1) NetRadiant
2) Quark
3) Sure you haven't used Willem's ToeTag for OS X, but it is mighty nice (but the user-interface is unintuitive and depends on a mouse. Like not even a notebook touchpad can use it because you need mouse3)
4) QER
5) Tread

Won't the license file by file morph? I'm just saying. Unless you don't plan on leveraging existing code.

Project Assessment: You seem to like NetRadiant just fine or acceptably so. It is already multi plat in theory. But installing it and setting up for Quake isn't automatic. Although BSP is a nice editor .... have you weighed the time required to improve BSP versus make NetRadiant BSP2 Quake noob friendly with auto-setup?

I think the fact you've done a great deed here and facilitating the open sourcing of this editor is great. At the same time, converting Win32 to some multi plat stuff like Qt or whatever is likely to be a major pain and a potentially long duration project. That being said, this editor seems very liked by the existing users and maybe WINE can run it great.

BTW: Once you guys do have a site setup for this editor and please make a super-nooby package. There can be a "prominent Hey check out BSP Quake Editor first ..." thing on the Quake Adapter page. You would be shocked at the kind of traffic that page gets.

If this BSP Editor setup can be made super-noob friendly, open source > dead editor.

Baker wrote:Assuming one of the first things you consider doing is grabbing some code from .....

The xxxRadiants and Quark (as well as various Quake tools) are GPL licensed, so using code from them means the whole thing (when compiled together) become GPL.

GPL would be a better choice -- if only to allow code to flow fleely between other Quake related stuff -- but I guess that's against Yahn's wishes (he said a BSD-style license).

Wine does run the editor, at least the version I tried (ViciouZ' I believe).

However a native Linux / OSX version would be great (probably using GTK like Radiant does).

You are right that it would be a pain in the ass to do that. I am only going to look at it as a hobby project - I work very effectively with Radiant and am unlikely to replace radiant with BSP personally. I am interested in it purely from the point of view that an open source editor similar to Worldcraft would be a good thing for the following reasons:

1. Evolution of the .map format is enabled.

2. Evolution of features is enabled.

3. Workflow in a larger team such as RMQ is potentially improved.

4. No bit rot.

I didn't really do this bit of research & communication for myself. That wasn't my main goal, I have a broader goal.

The license question: The 3-clause BSD license is listed as GPL-compatible here:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

I'm sure code that is under an incompatible license can either be relicensed for use here (contacting the authors) or rewritten ^^

Would anyone really want to use code from Quark, Toetag or Tread in this project? Just asking.

About newbie-friendly autosetup things.

I wrote a newbie tutorial for setting up Radiant. It is easy enough to do, you just download and install netradiant and download and install the Quake gamepack. Then you maybe change a few things in a text file, which I explain in the tutorial. That isn't hard at all. The main problem with newbies and Radiant seems to be the interface itself, in a similar way that lots of people don't like Gimp's interface.

Installing Radiant isn't inherently n00b-unfriendly.

Having said that, making Quake maps is inherently n00b-unfriendly. I know we disagree here. But making a Quake map that is worth playing (not just a box with an info_player_start in it) is HARD. Having a n00b-friendly install package means nothing if the process of learning how to map is 100 times harder than that. In a way, if you cannot even install Radiant (or BSP) as it is now, then I doubt you have the tenacity to make a full map.

I have thought about doing some video tutorials about Quake mapping (from scratch mapping). I might just do that, if my machine can handle the transcoding etc. I have to try it.

andrewj wrote:GPL would be a better choice -- if only to allow code to flow fleely between other Quake related stuff -- but I guess that's against Yahn's wishes (he said a BSD-style license).

If they want to add feature X, they can always look at what feature X does and implement that by coding what it does.

Or if they do choose to import literal code, put those functions at say the bottom of a source file with the license like what DarkPlaces does with strlcpy and strlcat. Like this in DarkPlaces common.c ---> http://gitorious.org/nexuiz/darkplaces/ ... a/common.c

goldenboy wrote:I wrote a newbie tutorial for setting up Radiant. It is easy enough to do, you just download and install netradiant and download and install the Quake gamepack. Then you maybe change a few things in a text file, which I explain in the tutorial.

Not looking to belabor this point, but when you guys released one of the previous RMQ demos you guys very quickly discovered that beginners were screwing it up and having problems left and right so you did an noob-installer this time.

Anyways, probably irrelevant because of this next one...

goldenboy wrote:That isn't hard at all. The main problem with newbies and Radiant seems to be the interface itself, in a similar way that lots of people don't like Gimp's interface.

Too true. I gave NetRadiant an honest try but I couldn't get my head around it. I'm used to the 4-pane view and the controls seemed unusual.

Then again, I bet after a while it is second-nature.

But making a Quake map that is worth playing (not just a box with an info_player_start in it) is HARD.

I think everyone's first few maps are usually unplayable crap and generally are a private playing around experience. But yeah that's true too.

goldenboy wrote:Would anyone really want to use code from Quark, Toetag or Tread in this project? Just asking.

Unknown. I tend to borrow blocks of code from FTEQW, DirectQ, DarkPlaces and particularly for math functions or matrix functions use them as-is. I used to literally snag chunks out of other engines and use them. Like adding anti-wallhack to ProQuake (via FTEQW) or the command list or video mode changing in ProQuake from FitzQuake or grab something from JoeQuake or Qrack like a name maker or something R00k made.

I guess I'm saying it could be possible you would do this. But I don't really know.

Baker wrote:Or if they do choose to import literal code, put those functions at say the bottom of a source file with the license like what DarkPlaces does with strlcpy and strlcat. Like this in DarkPlaces common.c ---> http://gitorious.org/nexuiz/darkplaces/ ... a/common.c

That is different, Darkplaces is GPL and GPL code can incorporate BSD or MIT/X licensed code and still remain GPL.

However inserting any GPL code into a BSD or MIT/X licensed code will effectively make the whole thing GPL -- and while this is allowed by the license, it seems to be against the original author's intention (which was my main point, but I guess it doesn't really doesn't matter to keep the code "BSD pure").

Heh. I wasn't implying otherwise, but yeah that does sort of weird up the author's wishes doesn't it. Anyways, these are questions for the participants in the project so I shall now meander off ...

[And licensing is a boring topic ... ones involving the GPL are twice are boring if you've read 50 of them, hehe ... Baker distracts other people. Quickly leaves ... ]

added license file and an icculus repo would be great.
jeff tried a few builds but it crashes for him i suspect cpu optimization (was built for a core2) ill target a pure pentium from now on but sse builds wont work then (user wth those cpu's can compile it themself. also less error prone).

looks like this here.

Considering Yahn said we can basically do what we want with it, I guess if we put it under the 3-clause BSD license it doesn't matter too much if someone later imports GPL code and thereby "taints" it. The GPL is still a do-what-you-want license, although it is more political than the BSD license. But that's something we realistically have to live with.

We could try keeping the main repo BSD licensed though, which would mean any GPL code wouldn't be directly ported, just used as a clue.

Yeah, damn licenses. I think as long as we keep it open source and free, though, we respect Yahn's intention.

bsd license should be ok since its compatible with basically any other license out there including GPL.

ill upload my source + built executables for testing (im kinda interrested in finding out if it crashes anywhere else) the source has a C::B workspace.

http://code.google.com/p/realm/download ... z&can=2&q=

btw source allready makes use of GPL code (libpng jpeg and zlib) so i think it should be ok