Quake MOD - In The Shadows

[Baker]

Also is there a way to have the same model lighting as Fitz? I still get lots of model pitch black but they look fine in Fitz. I remember John over at Func saying something about a lightmap change but I am not sure what the technical fix was.

Back in August, I found the Mark V that caused the bad lighting. It was an omission of a single line of code. I should have done a fix, but I was preoccupied with adding mirror reflections, security cameras and .. well ... #3 was so uber-cool I dare not say it.

Yes the lighting bug was a super-screwup on my part. And a simple fix I should have released. I hate bugs and bad engine behavior and I should have done a release the second I found the problem.

[LordHavoc]

Did you post on the Steam game hub for Quake?
http://steamcommunity.com/app/2310

[sock]

*Stupid idea* deleted.

[sock]

Did you post on the Steam game hub for Quake?
http://steamcommunity.com/app/2310

I looked at the steam Quake page a while ago and posted a couple of screenshots of my MOD to see if anyone was interested. I got no interest and I think is partly due to a couple problems.

1. The steam interface (screenshot/video) always default to most popular filters which means people rarely look at new content posted. The player has to go out of their way to find it, that is a counter intuitive interface.
2. Loading any kind of MOD with the current custom engines is a nightmare. (command line parameters, installing MODs in special directories). Valve got this right with Half Life, it is EASY to install MODs with the base engine, this is not the case with ANY custom quake engine. We (the community) are own worst enemies, we make it difficult to use the game.

I seriously dislike the current process, unzip file here, create shortcut, add wacky parameters, load custom engine, check config has not reset (controls, mlook etc) and then finally get to enjoy new content. It took me ages to get back into Quake again because of this stupid hurdle of how we (community) distribute content. To really make a difference with the steam communities it needs to be easier. There should be a way to install custom engines, download and run custom content with a few simple clicks of steam buttons.

I do like your point, I really need to find my target audience, I am sure there are plenty of quake fans out there but reaching them is just one constant uphill struggle!

[scar3crow]

Part of it is a disconnect of PC usage culture - Quake has a very simplistic structure (amendments), which is very fluid, but only if you are comfortable with command line input. For a shortcut system it is terribly clunky and weird (the only Quake shortcut I've ever had was QWCL, and even then, GameSpy launched that). Contemporary users aren't familiar with anything command line, I have coworkers who freeze up if they are asked what their IP is, or to do a tracert to Google, or to perform a release renew. None of them know the command line (some have never seen it), so when a mod asks them to install it, they are asked to either go through a very clunky interface, or wade into uncharted and mysterious waters. The path to experiencing Quake as we enjoy it is one with many trials and tribulations - ones that we often don't notice as we reflexively handle them. I do think something like Quaddicted's Quake Injector could in theory be suped up for mod support as well, so it simply turns into a general Quake front end. Its UI would still be daunting to some, but less so than hopping into Run.

[qbism]

It's really the "DIY hobbyist" attitude of our subculture, not something inherent in Quake mods or engines. Sometimes it is hard to see around that. But the assumptions we typically make about user ability are so far removed from most game players' ability that they can't even install it. Frankly it's hard for even die-hard fans to get many of our mods or engines to run as intended.

Some ideas, maybe I should actually follow them myself....

During development:
1. Make it really easy for a Quake newb to get through 1st level or two, and make the levels small. "Training levels?" Herd them through. Pop-up messages. Just like that "if Quake were made today spoof". If it's an engine, include a cfg or cvar defaults to make it work out-of-the-box with some decent settings. Find somebody to playtest it... beyond the I3D/func crowd. Interested newbs are gold.

Packaging:
Any mod could be packaged in an msi installer with a preset config, a nice desktop icon shortcut, shortcuts in the menu, etc. and the EXACT engine exe it works on. Name it "ITS_MarkV.exe" for example to avoid conflict. Who cares if there are multiple versions of the same engine in the quake dir (actually it would be nice if the exe could be in the mod directory somehow). The exe files are small, and we're talking about users who will never open a directory, much less go to a command prompt or create a shortcut from scratch.

Selling:
Focus on the mod/engine first, mention that it's Quake in the second paragraph. Many will see "Quake" and say, "Oh, I have Quake installed, must not have made it to that level yet."

[leileilol]

I understand from the above comments it is OK to distribute a new Quake Engine (under GPL) that works with the shareware assets and then you can extend that with your own assets, hence allowing people to enjoy shareware + user MODs (using no registered assets) for free. Obviously this does not mean distributing actual registered assets with the MOD because they are protected under copyright.

What I understood from the response is that you can redistribute the shareware as is, in other forms other than the original DOS DeICE installer (i.e. a shareware version for windows, a distro of n*x, etc) . I don't see anything new that would negate a restriction defined in SLICNSE.TXT and LICINFO.TXT allowing modified content. That would go against the incentive to buy the game.

1. QUAKE SHAREWARE END USER LICENSE (slicnse.txt) or
What You Can and Cannot Do With the Shareware Version of Quake.

CAN DO:
-- Play & Enjoy the single player game
-- Setup a shareware version based server on a not-for-profit basis

CANNOT DO:
-- Run the game with user developed levels.
-- You may not commercially exploit the shareware version in any way
This specifically excludes retail distribution of the shareware
version. Do not call or e-mail to ask if you can be a retail
distributor of the shareware version -- the answer is no!
-- Commercially exploit any id copyrighted and/or trademarked property.
Example: Game names, logos, graphics, etc.

I don't see why people want to exploit the shareware against its terms so much, especially the QW scene with their shareware bundles that violate the first clause so much.

[sock]

Any mod could be packaged in an msi installer with a preset config, a nice desktop icon shortcut, shortcuts in the menu, etc.

This is exactly what I want to do with the final release of my MOD in the coming weeks. If anyone has links to a good 'user friendly' Win7 installer package (that is free) that they can recommend, I would be extremely grateful. I want players to install my MOD and play it, not fiddle with and get frustrated downloading files from several different sources and then have to figure out how they work together.

I have always been impressed with the Quake Injector project, it is something that Steam desperately needs because it would unlock a mountain of awesome custom content that steam players could enjoy. There must be someone who can figure out how to get the front end working with steam so different engines can be installed and the correct content setup and working.

[LordHavoc]

Part of it is a disconnect of PC usage culture - Quake has a very simplistic structure (amendments), which is very fluid, but only if you are comfortable with command line input. For a shortcut system it is terribly clunky and weird (the only Quake shortcut I've ever had was QWCL, and even then, GameSpy launched that). Contemporary users aren't familiar with anything command line, I have coworkers who freeze up if they are asked what their IP is, or to do a tracert to Google, or to perform a release renew. None of them know the command line (some have never seen it), so when a mod asks them to install it, they are asked to either go through a very clunky interface, or wade into uncharted and mysterious waters. The path to experiencing Quake as we enjoy it is one with many trials and tribulations - ones that we often don't notice as we reflexively handle them. I do think something like Quaddicted's Quake Injector could in theory be suped up for mod support as well, so it simply turns into a general Quake front end. Its UI would still be daunting to some, but less so than hopping into Run.

I'd just like to note that in DarkPlaces there are two sorts of "easily installed" mod methods:
1. a zip that the user extracts to Quake folder, not a subfolder, and then they just use Browse Mods in the options menu to activate it, exit that menu and the renderer restarts and the mod is loaded.
2. if you host a multiplayer server, you can package everything in a .pk3 (renamed zip) archive and set up your sv_curl_defaulturl correctly and it will automatically download the pk3 on connect if it contains the currently played bsp (or any of the files listed in the sv_curl_serverpackages cvar - note these are not pk3 names but filenames within the pk3's you want the server to recommend to the client), the server automatically detects which pk3 the files came from and sends appropriate curl commands to the client console before joining. The pk3 will be stored in id1/dlcache/ and loaded only on demand when joining a server (unfortunately it does not issue an fs_rescan on every connect however, so this can only really add content, not override existing content, and it isn't unloaded on disconnect presently).

So #2 fixes multiplayer mod experience in large part, not by changing gamedir but by having a cache of content.

#1 needs a better cure however - if Steam allowed Quake mods to be posted, the Browse Mods would be quite sufficient I think.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but darkplaces is made for modders, it saddens me when people mess around with other engines that were not engineered specifically to enable versatile Quake modding, either lacking the diversity of features to be the "one true engine" or just being too unstable to be practical. It is the biggest community engine and if it has problems those problems should be addressed rather than looking for other engines.

[LordHavoc]

Any mod could be packaged in an msi installer with a preset config, a nice desktop icon shortcut, shortcuts in the menu, etc.

This is exactly what I want to do with the final release of my MOD in the coming weeks. If anyone has links to a good 'user friendly' Win7 installer package (that is free) that they can recommend, I would be extremely grateful. I want players to install my MOD and play it, not fiddle with and get frustrated downloading files from several different sources and then have to figure out how they work together.

I have always been impressed with the Quake Injector project, it is something that Steam desperately needs because it would unlock a mountain of awesome custom content that steam players could enjoy. There must be someone who can figure out how to get the front end working with steam so different engines can be installed and the correct content setup and working.

I just want to point out that you can put any glquake derived exe in the mod dir and run it with a bat file or shortcut that does:
-basedir .. -current -game modname -heapsize 65536

And that should get you to a happy gaming experience.

Note that -current uses the current desktop resolution in fullscreen (bypassing the headaches of mode switching and video configuration).

The -basedir option specifies where the quake dir is.

These are stock glquake.exe options and not something added in a sourceport, although I of course recommend using darkplaces instead (which makes the -heapsize irrelevant and does not support the -current option).

On another note I've been meaning to make darkplaces default fullscreen to desktop resolution and automatically change vid_conwidth accordingly.

[frag.machine]

What would be the effort to replace all shareware assets and thus turn the entire mod a standalone game ? Seems to me the Right Thing (tm) to do, legally speaking.

I don't think many people realize how many assets are in the Quake shareware version. It would take months to replace and there have been countless projects that have tried. Plus the primary reason for this idea is, I want to work with the original assets, they are awesome. If I replace the shareware assets with something else it would no longer be Quake, I might as well just make another game! I love the game Quake and I thought why not use the shareware assets, they can be distributed free (unmodified)

I thought if I can get my MOD to work with the shareware assets and add anything extra myself then it will not be breaking any agreement. You are allowed to distribute the shareware Quake as long as it is not modified. (all of the files included) The main engine has been under GPL for a long time, if I re-compile the engine to allow my MOD then it should work. The engine will not activate the registered cvar until the pop.lmp file has been found.

Don't get me wrong, Sock. I understand what you want to do, and yes, I have an exact idea of the number of assets in PAK0.PAK alone (339 files if memory serves me correctly, which took about 2 years and a top level artist team to be created and fine tuned, at pixel level). What I am trying to point is: the original shareware license wasn't revoked with the release of the source code, and that's a mistake a good number of people makes. I read the answer Carmack gave to your query and I failed to see where he explicily "authorized" the use of the shareware assets to public release of your mod. Morevoer, he stressed he's not the final word anymore in legal affairs. Finally, remember Generations (and back then, wasn't Bethesda commanding). But hey, it's your call. Frankly I hope you manage to prove I am wrong, but from what I saw along these 16 years, it 's a very gray area at best.

Also, it's interesting to note what can be considered "modified": for example, your mod have new models for the ogre and the hell knight (among others), new attacks and whole new gameplay implementation. If you replace the original models in the shareware package with yours, this can be interpreted as a "modification" of the game, legally speaking. Yup, you haven't changed a byte in the original files; however, you changed the monster appearance in game, and this is enough to break the shareware license. Remember, even modified progs.dat or using a player.mdl with external skins were always forbidden things in the shareware version, exactly for the reasons I exposed here.

Finally, only as an thought exercise: do you have a precise idea of how many shareware assets are you actually using in your mod ? I see a great number of medieval themed textures and models, some runic artwork, nothing from the base/militar artwork. Is that really so far to consider replacing what you are actually using with original artwork of your own ?

[sock]

I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but darkplaces is made for modders, it saddens me when people mess around with other engines that were not engineered specifically to enable versatile Quake modding

I have been hanging around the func forum for years and most Quake SP maps are released for the fitz engines. I always find it funny how the Quake community is so badly split up into distinct groups. Personally I have never tried the DP engine because I have always heard horror stories of long loading times, low FPS and when I see screenshots of DP disco coloured crazy bump quake maps it just makes me cringe.

Ok time to see what it is all about. I downloaded the latest version of DP, installed it to a blank directory, copied over my MOD + ID1 folders and bingo it all works. It does look awesome the blood trails, the extra effects on the weapons and the FPS is crazy fast. Plus all my textures are in beautiful pixel vision, it certainly is cool to know my MOD works with another Quake engine.

the original shareware license wasn't revoked with the release of the source code, and that's a mistake a good number of people makes.

Yeah your right. Well my MOD still works with the shareware version anyway, I will just roll back to my previous plan and release an update with source files only.

[sock]

Did you post on the Steam game hub for Quake?
http://steamcommunity.com/app/2310

I had a look at the steam page today. I cannot see any easy way to run custom content with the steam version of Quake. Most discussion talks about using custom engines that have to be copied all over the place. The steam files on win7 machines are in difficult locations and there seems to be no delivery/package system to safely add content. Is there any way to get the DP engine available on steam?

[Spike]

check where steam is installed and make it the default -basedir
that's what fte does.
you just can't do it via batch files.

[ceriux]

Half-life uses sub folders at least since iv played. half-life/modname. i assume i could even use darkplaces with steam id just have to replace my quake.exe or what ever. steams version of quake works the same as any other quake client. it just finds the quake.exe and launches for you. same as using non-steam version of quake through steam.