BFG in TF - Good or bad idea?

[Orion]

I was thinking about it since a kinda long time ago, and now I decided to post here... Is a BFG in TF a good idea?
I would put it to the Hwguy, so he would carry the SG, SSG, assault cannon and the BFG, carrying a maximum of 200 cells which are 4 BFG shots.

BUT, there are 2 types of BFG I would like to put, both are cool, one os doom-style, and other is quake2-style.

The doom BFG fires a ball with a speed of 25 doom units per second, which is more or less 1250 quake units per second. There's no blast damage, so you can fire it close to another player or wall and take no damage. The direct hit does random damage between 100 and 700 points.
Then, when the ball hits something, 0.4 seconds after touching something, 40 imaginary lines are traced in a 90-degree wide cone, whre the cone always face in the direction the ball was fired. Each trace does random damage between 16 and 128 points, where more than 1 trace can hit the same target, and use multi damage system like the shotguns.
BUT, that behavior in quake sucked, because it's pretty hard for a single trace hit a player when the ball miss the target.

What I did: Instead of tracing 40 lines, I did two findradius() of 1024 units narrowed down to a 90-degree wide cone, always facing the direction the ball was fired, of course.
Why did I do 2 findradius? One is to count how many players are within the cone, and another is to calculate and do the damage to the respective player(s). If there's a single player inside the imaginary cone, it'll take full damage, which is a random value between 640 and 5120 points. (!!)
If there are 2 or more players inside the cone, the damage is divided between them.


Now, the Quake2 BFG fires a ball with a speed of only 400 quake units per second (quake2 units are the same as quake1).
There is blast damage in this BFG. So it's dangerous to use it in close combat.
The Quake2 BFG does 4 types of damage: The direct hit; The blast damage; The laser damage; The blast effect.

The direct hit does 200 damage, fixed value, no randomness.
The blast damage also does fixed 200 damage.
The laser damage does 50 damage per second, in 5 point increments, the BFG ball thinks 10 times per second, searching for enemies within a 256-unit radius. If one or more players are close enough, the ball will fire the laser at the target(s).
The blast effect does the most powerful damage of the weapon. 0.1 second after the ball detonates, the ball will search for enemies in a 1000-unit radius, which is more powerful than a detpack! BUT, in order for this effect work, you have to be in the same room the enemy and the exploded BFG ball is. You can't be invisible for the ball, nor for the player(s) you want to frag.
If successful, this effect can do more than 1000 points of damage. (!!!)

So, what do you guys think?

[Electro]

I prefer the Q2 style of BFG.

also, I don't like the idea of having random amounts of damage, even the slightest. Quakes rockets being 100+random 20 is stupid.

[Supa]

I agree with using fixed damage amounts - randomness has absolutely no place in a game of skill.

That said, why? By 'why?' I don't mean to dismiss your idea but ask what void would giving the hwguy a BFG fill? The assault cannon is already useful for dealing damage and controlling a choke point, so why give the hwguy another tool that does practically the same thing?


Take the Demoman for example. The class has three tools that no other class has: the Grenade Launcher, Pipebombs and the Detpack. All three do heavy damage over a radius *but* they are each suited for a different role.

The Grenade Launcher is an effective space control tool for when you don't have time to seed an area with Pipebombs. You can't instantly damage a hostile and deny them the ability to escape like you could with a Soldier's RL, *but* the GL is excellent for pushing hostiles out of an area with the looming threat of splash damage. Smart* players don't flee the splash area because they fear getting damaged *now*, they flee because they fear getting damaged when they're too busy to avoid the splash area.

* That is to say, Players who don't get hit by the splash.. :)

Pipebombs are effective for space control as well, but are meant for another role. While the Grenade Launcher is effective for pushing hostiles out of an area, Pipebombs are useful for preventing hostiles from entering that area in the first place. Even if a fast enough hostile can pass through it, a Pipe trap is enough of a threat to prevent hostiles from entering that area for a period of time.

However the Detpack is a more team oriented tool. Like a Grenade it threatens a large area and forces the other team to do something about it. Like a Pipe it purchases an area and prevents the other team from occupying it until the Detpack detonates or is defused. Unlike the GL and Pipe Launcher, the Detpack presents a personal risk to the Demoman. Because the Demoman must remain still to plant the Detpack and the Demoman must defend it until it can safely detonate (lest a hostile Scout defuse it), the Detpack requires a great deal of effort from the Demoman. Should the Demoman fail at any point in the process all effort is wasted. Should the process succeed and the Detpack detonates the entire team stands to benefit from the Demoman's effort. To summarise the Detpack requires effort from a single player but has the potential to benefit that player's entire team by denying a large area to the other team.


Keeping this in mind and getting back to hwguys with BFGs, here is my suggestion. Make the BFG a tool to benefit the team more than it benefits the hwguy. Go with a Q2 style BFG ball but make sure it can't travel faster than a Scout - so try a ball that travels @ 400 ups or whatever speed is slower than the fastest class in your game. This way the ball can be a threat to approaching hostiles (attackers) but it can't chase down a flag runner, which fits into the hwguy's point defense role.

Rather than solely doing damage the BFG lasers and the blast effect will also slow down hostiles - players slowed down by a BFG would move at 25-33% velocity for a second or so. In addition the BFG ball splash could detonate rocket/grenade/pipe projectiles and hand grenades within the splash, giving the BFG a place on the offense and making the hwguy a bit more versatile.

This way the hwguy can rely on the assault cannon for point defense and the BFG can serve as a tool for assisting the team, rather than giving the hwguy a second tool for the same job.

[scar3crow]

One thing to bear in mind is that while a detpack would provide denial of presence due to the factor of "is it a 5 second or a 30 second or in between, when was it planted?", a BFG blast is extremely temporal, and visibly measured. In this measure it is no different in area denial then the autocannon, compressed into a single instance with a refire rate (and thus I would argue the autocannon would be more effective from a defensive position).

The Q2 BFG was useful for me in very specific circumstances, clearing groups of medium enemies in Q2 SP, attacking a base in CTF (McKinley Revival, BFG forces them to scatter behind the crates, just long enough for you to get near the flag and the water exit/entrance), and the rare occasion where I found in dm, a group of players fighting, and I actually did have the BFG and was not yet noticed.

Supa - Regarding the Demoman, I used to play him extensively (well I played TF so much I played basically everything extensively), and you're missing a few details in the Demoman's role, at least as I knew it and as my brother and other players used it. The Grenade Launcher is basically just used for close-non-melee combat and general GLishness. The Pipebomb is good for preventing entry, but is also excellent for long-range attacks, arcing the shot and watching the bounce to time with the detonation bind (from one of the towers in rock2 you could reach the far end of the yard with a pipebomb, I used this often to detonate midair to snag someone trying to cross the yard with the key). I must say I almost never used the detpack unless the map called for it (such as in, rock2).

Orion, to be frank I don't see a gain to be had from putting a BFG into TF. Its temporal nature makes it better for assaults then defense, and unless you get clever with the 20mm, HWguys aren't that great for assault.

Regarding Electro and Supa's comments on random damage, that is a thread unto itself...