Title really says it all. A wiki or couple of very guiding beginner tutorials would be nice.
Went back 4 pages but didn't seem to see any topics like this. If I missed one, please let me know.
Best source for beginner references?
Re: Best source for beginner references?
This same post is on InsideItalianHandbags.com... 
if not spammer, please be much more specific.
if not spammer, please be much more specific.Re: Best source for beginner references?
He's not a spammer. He's my employee from work. Spirit banned him on accident.
He's interested in mapping and curious if there are any good sites to go to to learn mapping. He's also wondering what kind of tools people are using now to make maps. I'm not a mapper, so I'm not quite knowledgeable in this field.
Benf: dammit, be more specific.
He's interested in mapping and curious if there are any good sites to go to to learn mapping. He's also wondering what kind of tools people are using now to make maps. I'm not a mapper, so I'm not quite knowledgeable in this field.
Benf: dammit, be more specific.
Re: Best source for beginner references?
hi, I am nahuel, I love quake and qc.
Re: Best source for beginner references?
Although its a bit mixed, these are links I found that helped me back in the day.
Worldcraft Mapping ( 1.6a, but the info applies to 3.3 if you adapt it slightly )
http://www.quake-1.com/wc16a-tutorial/index.html
Another one for mapping, but a bit strange for Quake I guess, as it's more about Half-Life/CS, but has some good stuff worth reading:
http://twhl.info/tutorial.php?cat=1
I lost a good link to a site about Quake3 Mapping, which if your using some engines, Quake3 maps can be used in Quake1.
But if you do go the route of Quake3 mapping, this is an invaluable resource, Quake3 Arena Shader Manual:
http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/shader/index.html
There is a post I think, on QuakeOne.com, regarding a start point for installing, setting up, and learning to Map with Worldcraft 3.3, but I cant find it lol.
EDIT:
Acutally, I think Baker has something to do with that post, and thus, he'l prob have the linky.
Worldcraft Mapping ( 1.6a, but the info applies to 3.3 if you adapt it slightly )
http://www.quake-1.com/wc16a-tutorial/index.html
Another one for mapping, but a bit strange for Quake I guess, as it's more about Half-Life/CS, but has some good stuff worth reading:
http://twhl.info/tutorial.php?cat=1
I lost a good link to a site about Quake3 Mapping, which if your using some engines, Quake3 maps can be used in Quake1.
But if you do go the route of Quake3 mapping, this is an invaluable resource, Quake3 Arena Shader Manual:
http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/shader/index.html
There is a post I think, on QuakeOne.com, regarding a start point for installing, setting up, and learning to Map with Worldcraft 3.3, but I cant find it lol.
EDIT:
Acutally, I think Baker has something to do with that post, and thus, he'l prob have the linky.
I'm looking for a Mapper, Modeller/Animator and a Sound effect/Music person, to work on an exciting project. PM Me here, or catch me on IRC for further info.
Re: Best source for beginner references?
Not a spammer. I'm looking for resources aimed at beginners understanding which Quake 1 map editors are popular, and how the overall process is typically learned. I don't mind reading, but I'm just looking for beginner references for what to start studying to make quake 1 maps.qbism wrote:This same post is on InsideItalianHandbags.com...
Qrv wrote:Although its a bit mixed, these are links I found that helped me back in the day.
Worldcraft Mapping ( 1.6a, but the info applies to 3.3 if you adapt it slightly )
http://www.quake-1.com/wc16a-tutorial/index.html
Another one for mapping, but a bit strange for Quake I guess, as it's more about Half-Life/CS, but has some good stuff worth reading:
http://twhl.info/tutorial.php?cat=1
I lost a good link to a site about Quake3 Mapping, which if your using some engines, Quake3 maps can be used in Quake1.
But if you do go the route of Quake3 mapping, this is an invaluable resource, Quake3 Arena Shader Manual:
http://toolz.nexuizninjaz.com/shader/shader/index.html
Those are really useful, the quake-1.com link particularly.
And Nahuel, the Quark page also looks very interesting. Thanks for that.
Re: Best source for beginner references?
Sadly, there's no proper wiki or complete set of tutorials anymore, afaik. Most of them were lost over the course of time, as websites died or shifted focus etc.
You might find gb's basic Radiant tutorials helpful, though.
You might find gb's basic Radiant tutorials helpful, though.
Re: Best source for beginner references?
I'm a "coder art" mapper, but someday I'll finish a real map...
Here's the Worldcraft Quake adapter. http://quakeone.com/qadapter/ Worldcraft is intuitive and an easy way to get into mapping. I've used it for HL maps but not with the adapter.
BSP http://www.bspquakeeditor.com/ is nicely set up for Quake but haven't used it for a long time. Several tutorials. Closed source (?) and dev may have stopped on it.
Tread3D has tuturials (and is open source). Does anybody use it?
Some mappers have released their map source which might be good to learn from. There was a big map source zip collection compiled, but can't remember where.
Here's the Worldcraft Quake adapter. http://quakeone.com/qadapter/ Worldcraft is intuitive and an easy way to get into mapping. I've used it for HL maps but not with the adapter.
BSP http://www.bspquakeeditor.com/ is nicely set up for Quake but haven't used it for a long time. Several tutorials. Closed source (?) and dev may have stopped on it.
Tread3D has tuturials (and is open source). Does anybody use it?
Some mappers have released their map source which might be good to learn from. There was a big map source zip collection compiled, but can't remember where.
Re: Best source for beginner references?
There isn't a "general look at Q1 mapping" article anywhere, to my knowledge. Usually it's about putting brushes together and putting a light in a room... stuff like that. Of course you need to do that, but there is a lot more to it.
Editors used right now range from old versions of Worldcraft to WC 3.3 / Quake Adapter, probably even Hammer, QuARK, even Quoole or Quest, to BSP, ToeTag, and several variants of Radiant (QERadiant, GTKRadiant 1.4/1.5, Netradiant). And I probably forgot stuff. You must basically try them all and see what suits you.
The mappers on the team I'm on use mainly Worldcraft and Radiant. You will also have to use compiling tools, to transform your .map file into a .bsp the engine can read. There is a GUI program for this:
http://shoresofnis.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... pilinggui/
You will need texture WAD files, at least the standard Quake textures. There used to be a texture wad archive at quaddicted.com, but as long as that isn't up, look at quaketastic.com.
As to how the process is learned... unfortunately it is learned the hard way. I started reading func_msgboard around 2005 I think. Hence, it took me 6 years to make the stuff you see on my blog. Level design is not easy or simple at all. Yes, it is easy to make a box and put a player start + a light in it. But making good single player levels is hard and it takes time to get better, and if you're not very good, you're going to get negative feedback for a while, especially if you don't keep your head down. You'll have to grid your teeth and carry on.
It depends what you want to make though. It might be smart to start with speedmaps, although you'll need to have the basic process down very well to even have a chance to make a map in 2 hours, even a bad one. Another thing you can try is multiplayer maps. Or just start building box rooms, and try to make them more and more interesting.
Ultimately you learn by studying and copying what others have done, though. Good games to study the level design in are Quake 2 and Doom 3, and probably Quake 3. Look at the maps in those games (use noclip etc so you can concentrate on just studying the layout) and try to find out what makes them work and how it's typically done, especially the layout. Bioshock I find to be another game with relatively clear-cut level design. Personally I learned a lot from studying Tomb Raider levels. Try to figure out what the main challenge is in a level, and how it is created. Where are the keys and buttons and doors? What is the progression? How much time does the player spend on the various subtasks, ie how is the map portioned or divided? Is the map fun to play? If so, why? What are the highlights? How did they do it? Is there any obvious centerpiece meant to impress? Is the level still good without the visuals? Try making a flow chart of a level, even.
Single player mapping is usually about putting in obstacles or challenges (a locked door is a simple one) and then making the player do chores just to find the key. Repeat twice (silver and gold key), and you have a basic Quake map. You can substitute a lot of different things for both the door and the key. Just play some Quake or similar games to see all the mean things that can be done to the player. Basically you want to challenge the player, but not too much so he gets the feeling of having achieved something... after finding the key, or opening the door. The elements are very simple, the trick is in pretending they are special and unique and creative and making the player feel awesome. Apart from the basic layout and stuff like doors, keys and buttons, the rest is smoke and mirrors. Try ignoring the look of something and find out what it actually does. You'll find soon enough that deep down, it makes you press buttons or collect keys, even if the keys look like PDAs (or documents / unique items), the buttons look like fancy touch screens (or computer consoles, art-deco switches, boss monsters that must be killed to proceed) and the doors look like force fields, moving statues, teleporters, rotating bridges or even NPCs that you have to give an item to. You must see the underlying mechanic and learn it. It is about obstacles and overcoming them.
And while the player goes looking for that key, he should ideally run into a few harmless monsters or get pierced by nail shooters. You see where your opportunity is? A harmless door, requiring a key. Not a threat in sight. Pretty lighting! Aww. So Doofus McDoofy trudges off to get the key like a good player. He rounds a corner. And this is where you spring the trap. Monsters appear, traps go off, a door closes behind the player, and only after surviving this will he get the treat. Phew! Had to axe that last shambler (but miraculously survived because there were enough resources)! The nice, shiny key. Finally. Unfortunately, and predictably, the door is at the other end of the map now. What a tired, worn-out stereotype. And it never works out quite like you planned it, which is why you need playtesters.
For multiplayer, it depends on the gametype. Old school DM is about map control, ie controlling important items. So you wouldn't put the RA and the MH in the same place. It's mainly about item placement. SP and MP mapping are quite different in general, and both require specialized knowledge. Hence some SP maps don't even support multiplayer anymore, at all. It's too different.
As for the environment, the physical map or brushwork, the most important thing is to complete a rough, but working layout. Being able to actually complete a map, however ugly, that can be played from start to end, is the main skill to have. Even if it's just 3 rooms and a few corridors with a silver key door at the end. It can always be polished, expanded or partially rebuilt later. The next most important thing is to come up with a theme (dungeon, sewers, temple, base) and build a few recognizable pieces (pillars, pipes, altars) that can be re-used everywhere to give the map an identity. (I actually often do the two things the other way around, but I don't suggest that). Most Q1 maps actually put great weight on the environment and try to go for impressive looks and/or create a certain "feel" to the location. They are very environment-heavy. In other games as well, level designers often go for "pretty" and "impressive". While that is good (a player already awed by the sheer visuals is easier to manipulate, too), it's not required to make a solid map. Many people still love the relatively simple vanilla Quake maps because they have solid gameplay. So you don't need to aim for Marcher Fortress immediately. Rather aim for E1M1 or E4M3 and try to at least finish something with 30 monsters, a couple torches and a gold key. There's always a next map.
Everything else, like trim, useless detail, skyboxes, fog, terrain, fancy lighting etc. is a bonus in principle. Of course I'm simplifying here.
Take a look at the mapcore.net forums WIP thread and see how they go about blocking out a map. It's the same basic process in Quake, Quake 3, Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 as well as a lot of similar games.
http://forums.mapcore.net/viewforum.php?f=57
... Always keep to the grid. Set the grid to 32 units and start building stuff on that. Put a player start in to compare the scale. Build small things; make a corridor and try to get it to look more interesting. Build a room and try to detail it more. Vary the floor height. Put in pillars, windows, and dividing walls. Make a sky window. Add in a second floor. Eventually, try to build most rooms with at least two floors so you have 3D action.
And if it's just level design you're interested in, Quake is absolutely not the best place to start. But if you want to map for Quake, then you'll have to bite the bullet I guess.
Ask at func_msgboard in the mapping help thread if you have specific questions.
http://celephais.net/board/forum.php
PS: The mapping tutorials at the Valve wiki are probably also helpful for Quake mappers.
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki ... vel_Design
Editors used right now range from old versions of Worldcraft to WC 3.3 / Quake Adapter, probably even Hammer, QuARK, even Quoole or Quest, to BSP, ToeTag, and several variants of Radiant (QERadiant, GTKRadiant 1.4/1.5, Netradiant). And I probably forgot stuff. You must basically try them all and see what suits you.
The mappers on the team I'm on use mainly Worldcraft and Radiant. You will also have to use compiling tools, to transform your .map file into a .bsp the engine can read. There is a GUI program for this:
http://shoresofnis.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... pilinggui/
You will need texture WAD files, at least the standard Quake textures. There used to be a texture wad archive at quaddicted.com, but as long as that isn't up, look at quaketastic.com.
As to how the process is learned... unfortunately it is learned the hard way. I started reading func_msgboard around 2005 I think. Hence, it took me 6 years to make the stuff you see on my blog. Level design is not easy or simple at all. Yes, it is easy to make a box and put a player start + a light in it. But making good single player levels is hard and it takes time to get better, and if you're not very good, you're going to get negative feedback for a while, especially if you don't keep your head down. You'll have to grid your teeth and carry on.
It depends what you want to make though. It might be smart to start with speedmaps, although you'll need to have the basic process down very well to even have a chance to make a map in 2 hours, even a bad one. Another thing you can try is multiplayer maps. Or just start building box rooms, and try to make them more and more interesting.
Ultimately you learn by studying and copying what others have done, though. Good games to study the level design in are Quake 2 and Doom 3, and probably Quake 3. Look at the maps in those games (use noclip etc so you can concentrate on just studying the layout) and try to find out what makes them work and how it's typically done, especially the layout. Bioshock I find to be another game with relatively clear-cut level design. Personally I learned a lot from studying Tomb Raider levels. Try to figure out what the main challenge is in a level, and how it is created. Where are the keys and buttons and doors? What is the progression? How much time does the player spend on the various subtasks, ie how is the map portioned or divided? Is the map fun to play? If so, why? What are the highlights? How did they do it? Is there any obvious centerpiece meant to impress? Is the level still good without the visuals? Try making a flow chart of a level, even.
Single player mapping is usually about putting in obstacles or challenges (a locked door is a simple one) and then making the player do chores just to find the key. Repeat twice (silver and gold key), and you have a basic Quake map. You can substitute a lot of different things for both the door and the key. Just play some Quake or similar games to see all the mean things that can be done to the player. Basically you want to challenge the player, but not too much so he gets the feeling of having achieved something... after finding the key, or opening the door. The elements are very simple, the trick is in pretending they are special and unique and creative and making the player feel awesome. Apart from the basic layout and stuff like doors, keys and buttons, the rest is smoke and mirrors. Try ignoring the look of something and find out what it actually does. You'll find soon enough that deep down, it makes you press buttons or collect keys, even if the keys look like PDAs (or documents / unique items), the buttons look like fancy touch screens (or computer consoles, art-deco switches, boss monsters that must be killed to proceed) and the doors look like force fields, moving statues, teleporters, rotating bridges or even NPCs that you have to give an item to. You must see the underlying mechanic and learn it. It is about obstacles and overcoming them.
And while the player goes looking for that key, he should ideally run into a few harmless monsters or get pierced by nail shooters. You see where your opportunity is? A harmless door, requiring a key. Not a threat in sight. Pretty lighting! Aww. So Doofus McDoofy trudges off to get the key like a good player. He rounds a corner. And this is where you spring the trap. Monsters appear, traps go off, a door closes behind the player, and only after surviving this will he get the treat. Phew! Had to axe that last shambler (but miraculously survived because there were enough resources)! The nice, shiny key. Finally. Unfortunately, and predictably, the door is at the other end of the map now. What a tired, worn-out stereotype. And it never works out quite like you planned it, which is why you need playtesters.
For multiplayer, it depends on the gametype. Old school DM is about map control, ie controlling important items. So you wouldn't put the RA and the MH in the same place. It's mainly about item placement. SP and MP mapping are quite different in general, and both require specialized knowledge. Hence some SP maps don't even support multiplayer anymore, at all. It's too different.
As for the environment, the physical map or brushwork, the most important thing is to complete a rough, but working layout. Being able to actually complete a map, however ugly, that can be played from start to end, is the main skill to have. Even if it's just 3 rooms and a few corridors with a silver key door at the end. It can always be polished, expanded or partially rebuilt later. The next most important thing is to come up with a theme (dungeon, sewers, temple, base) and build a few recognizable pieces (pillars, pipes, altars) that can be re-used everywhere to give the map an identity. (I actually often do the two things the other way around, but I don't suggest that). Most Q1 maps actually put great weight on the environment and try to go for impressive looks and/or create a certain "feel" to the location. They are very environment-heavy. In other games as well, level designers often go for "pretty" and "impressive". While that is good (a player already awed by the sheer visuals is easier to manipulate, too), it's not required to make a solid map. Many people still love the relatively simple vanilla Quake maps because they have solid gameplay. So you don't need to aim for Marcher Fortress immediately. Rather aim for E1M1 or E4M3 and try to at least finish something with 30 monsters, a couple torches and a gold key. There's always a next map.
Everything else, like trim, useless detail, skyboxes, fog, terrain, fancy lighting etc. is a bonus in principle. Of course I'm simplifying here.
Take a look at the mapcore.net forums WIP thread and see how they go about blocking out a map. It's the same basic process in Quake, Quake 3, Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 as well as a lot of similar games.
http://forums.mapcore.net/viewforum.php?f=57
... Always keep to the grid. Set the grid to 32 units and start building stuff on that. Put a player start in to compare the scale. Build small things; make a corridor and try to get it to look more interesting. Build a room and try to detail it more. Vary the floor height. Put in pillars, windows, and dividing walls. Make a sky window. Add in a second floor. Eventually, try to build most rooms with at least two floors so you have 3D action.
And if it's just level design you're interested in, Quake is absolutely not the best place to start. But if you want to map for Quake, then you'll have to bite the bullet I guess.
Ask at func_msgboard in the mapping help thread if you have specific questions.
http://celephais.net/board/forum.php
PS: The mapping tutorials at the Valve wiki are probably also helpful for Quake mappers.
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki ... vel_Design
Re: Best source for beginner references?
Thanks for the in-depth replies, Goldenboy and Qbsim.