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Expo 2014

Talk about the Quake Expo and Quake Speed events.

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Re: Expo 2014

Postby ceriux » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:10 pm

i vote yes to comments on booths. at least something like a "like" system. maybe top liked booths can get a spot on the front page?
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby Spike » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:28 pm

aye comments/feedback can be vital as a motivator.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby gnounc » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:35 pm

qexpo could have its own twitter accound and post updates and daily news (as well as a countdown).
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby CocoT » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:19 am

Stumbled upon this thread and thought I'd give my two cents, since I'm a QExpo old fart.

- In our initial vision, QExpo needed to be primarily about boosting a community that was slowly (but surely) ebbing away. I believe it helped a lot, even though it also came with some unexpected consequences (such as people (and I ended up being one of them) deciding to not release stuff except for QExpos). Personally, I'd love to see inventive ways to ensure that, indeed, a new QExpo would not be a mere exercise in style but a real effort to 1) keep people in the community and 2) bring fresh blood in the community (the hardest part, obviously). It was not thought of as a mere passive showcase, it needs to be a tool that ensures the survival and dynamism of the community.
- Not to be a party pooper but, from my perspective, the community (and in particular the modding side of it) seems a lot sleepier today than it was 13 years ago - and we thought it was already in a bad shape then. It's not dying but, well, it's in a bit of a coma. Before launching a new QExpo, I'd make sure to get a sense of how many people will indeed actively work on getting something released. A new thread could be dedicated to just that and it would be important to advertise that thread in as many sites/forums as possible ("please make yourself known here. List the things you would be releasing and/or showcasing"). If, after a few weeks, only a handful of people respond, then you know you're in trouble. Setting up QExpo correctly requires 1) a good amount of extremely committed people on the "site side" of it (ask all people in charge of it since the 2001 edition - it is physically and mentally exhausting) and 2) a good amount of committed people in the "contents side" of it. You need both, and it simply would be unfair to ask the first group to commit so much time and energy in such project if the second group does not exist or is not ready to commit.
- While I'm the first one to recognize that the first QExpo took place relatively soon after the project was launched (a few months still, though), I do also believe that trying to rush things would not be a good idea. Back then, the idea spread like wildfire and lots of people quickly got their hands dirty to make it happen. While we have the experience of former QExpos (and even some templates) to help us out, I'm not sure we have the same kind of man/willpower. And, to me, a failed QExpo would be lot worse than no QExpo at all. Not to say that August would necessarily be too early, but simply that things would need to get rolling relatively soon if we want this to happen. I'd be personally in favour of a later Qexpo (2015?) with a strong commitment of forum members from here and Celephais to work towards it in the meantime, but I do recognize the danger of loss of interest and/or loss of members. It's a double-edged sword.
- In my opinion (but once again, I'm not expecting you to share it), a new QEXpo would need to bring new things on the table to be truly successful. Using newer social media is a good start - but it will require more people to get involved which, as I mentioned above, might not be the easiest thing. I'm thinking about really attractive stuff, like working hand in hand with indie developers who want to work with a Quake1/2/3 engine, kickstarter projects, contests people actually want to enter and participate in, coding jams streamed online, fun activities/projects that involve Quake in a modern way and do not necessarily involve modding, mapping or coding. The actual release of a fully free, distributable version of Quake would also be a way to make the next QExpo special. Also, I've always been a little disappointed to see how we never quite managed to get people from the original ID crew to get more actively involved in QExpo. If the next QExpo managed that, it would be an awesome, (hopefully) inspiring change. We could even dream of working hand in hand with Steam and ID to create workshops for the Quakes or even trading cards (I'm sure the latter would bring players in flocks) (Okay, I admit, the latter ideas are a bit of a pipe dream). A significant Steam sale on the three Quakes that week would also be a neat way to get the attention of younger players (and future potential modders/mappers). Former QExpos have been great, but we need to constantly think outside the box if we don't want QExpos to become just old, tired versions of themselves.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby goldenboy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:13 pm

CocoT wrote:I'm thinking about really attractive stuff, like working hand in hand with indie developers who want to work with a Quake1/2/3 engine, kickstarter projects, contests people actually want to enter and participate in, coding jams streamed online, fun activities/projects that involve Quake in a modern way and do not necessarily involve modding, mapping or coding.


I am continuously working on my idtech1/3 based game, and have quite often released tutorials or articles in the past at my blogs. I could hold off the release of my next article/s until Qexpo. I could also talk about how one makes a game with such an engine today. However, I think most people in the remaining Quake community either know all this, or read my blog, or are not interested in anything that's not "faithful".

So something would need to be done to bring in enough new people to whom my articles/tutorials might actually be interesting.

I was also under the impression that despite my tutorials getting a ton of hits, nothing actually came of them. I know of no cases where my tutorials actually contributed to new maps or mods being made. This is why I took them down. Quake modding is just comparatively hard and obscure compared to other things, unfortunately. So I'm not even sure what the benefit of this kind of stuff is.

I also think that most people who might be interested in Quake are interested for sentimental reasons, and don't want to know anything about indie games. The fact is that the idtech pipelines just cannot compete with Unity & co. because they are not user friendly enough. People today just don't have the guts to use these engines anymore because they either want ultra pretty graphics (the smaller part) or because they want their hand held a lot (Unity noobs, aka the majority.) Tools like Radiant and q3map2 are just too hard to learn for most people who call themselves indie developers today. The need to compile maps is a huge turn-off when Unity allows you to see any changes you made in realtime. You need balls of steel to make indie games with idtech engines.

So advertising Quake engines as a tool for indie game development will probably fail simply because of the close-to-the-metal workflow that entails. It's like trying to get people to use Linux From Scratch instead of Ubuntu. It doesn't work.

The best angle to bring in new people would be the sentimental vintage game one, and the multiplayer one. Although Quake multiplayer probably is just too punishing for people nowadays (I even agree with that.) Quake can never beat Call of Duty.

And these are the reasons why the community is dying. Unforgiving multiplayer, bad graphics, obscure and hard to use tools. Qexpo will never change that.

The actual release of a fully free, distributable version of Quake would also be a way to make the next QExpo special.


Yes it would; free stuff always gathers a crowd. But with Zenimax, this is incredibly unlikely since with Steam and GoG, there is still an easy way to make a profit with these old games.

If you were talking about a free multiplayer total conversion, I think Baker made such a thing already. Nobody played it. Let's be honest, how many people are playing FreeDoom when they can just download the real one? Nobody!

Also, I've always been a little disappointed to see how we never quite managed to get people from the original ID crew to get more actively involved in QExpo. If the next QExpo managed that, it would be an awesome, (hopefully) inspiring change. We could even dream of working hand in hand with Steam and ID to create workshops for the Quakes or even trading cards (I'm sure the latter would bring players in flocks) (Okay, I admit, the latter ideas are a bit of a pipe dream).


One can always dream, I guess.

A significant Steam sale on the three Quakes that week would also be a neat way to get the attention of younger players (and future potential modders/mappers).


A Steam sale on a game that already is ridiculously cheap? The price isn't the problem, the game itself just isn't appealing to most people anymore. Also *cough* there are four Quakes, five if you count ETQW. Does Steam only sell the first three? Most people probably think of Strogg when they think of Quake these days.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby ceriux » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:54 pm

i somewhat agree with everything said above. gamers now days expect high quality simulated real graphics... smooth multiplayer ect.. even id play more quake if the multiplayer was smoother, its just so laggy. secondly the multiplayer is a bit too basic.. i'm not too big of a COD fan. but things like reloading really make a game feel more fun. the only way to get new modders / players would be to have a good, fun, new online community. also better development tools... hammer is okay but meh, radiant just isnt user friendly enough. we need tools like trenchbroom but with out the crashes for no reason... a better modeling tool than QME.. blenders too much to learn and max costs way too much. new texture tools ect..

i personally think the best thing quake has going for it is QC and CSQC.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby leileilol » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:19 am

I can see Qexpo 2014:

HALO FOR THE PSP
NAZI ZOMBIES FOR THE PSP
CALL OF DUTY FOR THE PSP
sock's new map
PORTAL FOR THE PSP
TITANFALL FOR THE PSP
SPLATOON FOR THE PSP
GOAT SIMULATOR FOR THE PSP
quoth update
DAYZ FOR THE PSP
NARUTO FOR THE PSP
DESTINY FOR THE PSP


FOSS community has a similar problem too, it's always Wesnoth and 0 A.D. every year.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby ceriux » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:03 am

leilei i think thats also another problem. most of the active mods and total conversions are all copies of other games. i think socks ( and of course blaze!) project has been my favorite simply because its not a clone. i want to see a stand alone total conversion project or something. i dont have the time or ability to do it myself atm.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby goldenboy » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:27 pm

If Radiant had a near-realtime lighting preview mode (ie loading lightmaps) and a setup wizard, it could be more attractive. Most people who try to install Radiant get frustrated before they ever start mapping. A lot of the time, the editor doesn't find the textures, for instance. Stupid configuration file structure is another problem: Why is there both a folder called q1.game and a text file called q1.game? That is moronic.

If there was a really good Blender-for-Quake video tutorial, that might help also. But the community is at fault here, too: People often recommend things like "using Blender to export a .map file" (veeeery bad idea for most newbies), using the MD3 format (bad idea again, because of outdated and hard to use exporters) and such. That stuff is terribly bad advice.

The only remotely newbie-friendly way to make Quake models in Blender is using the official IQM exporter, because that works most of the time.

Another newbie killer is the entire map compilation process. There are too many different tools out on the internet. Most people have no idea how to run something from a command prompt under Windows, and thus they never actually see the error messages from the map compiler. It's horrible.

I've seen newbies despair trying to use the tools many times.

Quake needs tools that completely run in a nice GUI under Windows, don't require ancient versions of VisualBasic, and print their error messages in easy-to-read ways. The community also badly needs to agree on the best map and model formats and the best engines to use, in order to stop the confusion, but that will never happen.

Finally, there is almost no proper documentation about QuakeC and its basic mechanics. CSQC is almost better documented than QC.

Regarding multiplayer, it would be good if matchmaking was added to the more popular mods, and if there were newbie friendly modes such as a bomb mode and an instagib one. Right now, newbies have a life expectancy of 5 seconds and have a hard time getting frags.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby leileilol » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:04 pm

goldenboy wrote:Finally, there is almost no proper documentation about QuakeC and its basic mechanics.

You haven't thrown your eyes around enough.
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Postby CocoT » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:50 am

... not to talk about the myriad of tutorials on this very site or Coffee's site.

Again, just my two cents... I'm concerned when a thread about a possible QExpo becomes a list of things that the game is lacking compared to newer games. Now, I understand the argument that new people interested in creating a new game might not find the Quake engine the most attractive, but I personally don't think underselling the engine will do us - as a community - any good. A souped-up version of Darkplaces still looks a lot better to me than some indie engines out there and, with the new craze for "retro" gaming, visuals have become a bit irrelevant anyway.

Sure, tools for Quake1 are not greatly optimized, but I wouldn't describe them as extremely hard to use. If newbies modders are giving up using Quake1 because they find too hard to use, they have either not look hard enough for tutorials or are too easily deterred - you can compile a progs.dat at (literally) the click of a button and that can already do a lot. Anyway, I personally see Quake1 as a good platform to test out simple gameplay ideas. But if someone is hoping to turn it into the next CryEngine game beater, then they'll indeed be in trouble.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby toneddu2000 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:15 pm

I would like to take some positive feedbacks here :D. I love Quake engine, nonetheless I found what gb said a real truth. I would like (I don't know if I can make in time for Quake Expo 2014 - by the way when does it start? :P ) to create a game from scratch with less SSQC and more CSQC with advanced features and release it to community and A LOT of documentation for every aspect (character export and skeletal animation, basic and advanced mapping, GUI scripting, etc).

A souped-up version of Darkplaces still looks a lot better to me than some indie engines out there and, with the new craze for "retro" gaming, visuals have become a bit irrelevant anyway.
Partially agree, partially... no :)

But if someone is hoping to turn it into the next CryEngine game beater, then they'll indeed be in trouble.
Sure, it would be an hard task! A simpler task would be saying: hey, which are old generation Quake engines? Which are new gen ones? Let's consider old gen useful to continue the quake tradition and let's (the whole community I mean) together create a new engine with COMMON features to develop new games. If, of course, people are interested to! Because, otherwise, I'm just saying a lot of bulls*#ts! :)

I'm personally trying to create a detailed documentation about skeletal animation on FTE and DP and, the thing that freaks me out, is that I tried to follow the only piece of paper I found about it which is written by Spike and I can't make it work even if I replicate the same steps! And, you guys, I spent days (not hours, days) trying to animate with CSQC a simple skeletal model!

So, for me, lack of documentation by developers is, as a matter of fact, a real obstacle to newbies. Nevertheless I always thank quake developers for bringing us these great tools. I would like to see only a little documentation more.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby mankrip » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:33 pm

Whoever wants to make an expo should do it for the public, but not because of the public.
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby revelator » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:54 am

I would not say hard but it depends on whether people want to keep compatibility with quake itself.
If they do then yes because quake was newer built to make use of next gen features.
Darkplaces does a good job with the availiable rtlights but if you have some obscure mod you want to take advantage of the features darkplaces has without being a dev,
means you will have a hard time getting things to work properly.

Creating something next gen from the sources is indeed possible (leaked half-life2 used quake1 as a base and i know that, i had a look before deleting the thing again. Curiosity got the better of me :S).
I newer used any of what i saw in there, it was a mistake to even download it but it gave me some insight on things.

And i agree with GB on radiant, it needs a better layout, and an easier way to get started with it would also help.

An expo sounds great though :)
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Re: Expo 2014

Postby r00k » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:01 pm

i would suggest instead of trying to hurry up and 'have an expo' maybe spend some time planning, coding, advertising a Qexpo in regards to Quake's 20th birthday!
This seems like a long time apart from last expo to next, but at least there is time for all parties to bring something of quality to the table. :D
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