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Bots, the pros and cons, what are they for you?

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Postby Lightning Hunter » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:08 am

You know, whatever the bot may be that comes out - it would be nice if it could load the same waypoints the Frikbots use. I've created waypoints for over 500 maps for the Frikbots, and I'm not about to create more for yet another bot. Since all those 500 maps (all the most popular maps) already have perfect waypoints, why not create a smarter bot that can use the same waypoints? I don't think anyone out there is willing to create new waypoints at the moment. It took me months to create waypoints for 500 maps as it is. In fact, If I could go back and replace the time spent on creating those waypoints with something else, I probably would. :P

Honestly, I think the navigation abilities of the Frikbots are unbeatable. They would be perfect if it wasn't for some of the bugs in the game play department. They could also use a revamped battle system (tracking players down, running away from battles for health, etc.). At the moment, the bots will only attack players they come across while going for items, and will fight to the death no matter what weapon they possess (even if that weapon is the measly axe). I think they need to be smarter about picking and chosing their battles to engage in.

Besides all that, I really don't see a need to create a bot with a better navigation system. Just take a look at the videos on my forum thread for the waypoints I've created for the Frikbots:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod-re ... ypack.html

As you can see from those videos, the Frikbots (with some clever waypointing) can perform any button combination, collect any item, perform trick jumps, complex rocket jumps, etc... I was able to get them to collect 99.9% of all the important items on every map I waypointed.
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Postby qbism » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:05 pm

Lightning Hunter wrote:They could also use a revamped battle system (tracking players down, running away from battles for health, etc.). At the moment, the bots will only attack players they come across while going for items, and will fight to the death no matter what weapon they possess (even if that weapon is the measly axe). I think they need to be smarter about picking and chosing their battles to engage in.

I played with these new waypoints and a couple friends in teamplay mode with the bots. Group behavior was uncanny, although maybe they were all just deciding on the next best goal at the same time. Occasionally two bots on the same team would RJ to a red armor ledge. The one who lost out would diverge immediately (even mid-air) and have a lead on getting the next goal.

Modifying goals might be the best way to improve (or more humanize) the Frikbot:
1. When health or ammo are critical, set primary goal to "delayed status", break-off with any opponents, and head toward power-up instead.
2. Prioritize player targets: Choose from high-scorers, easy targets, or "grudges" depending on score and other factors.
3. If goal is very close, don't divert for combat. Even though it may sacrifice a few health points to attain the goal.
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Postby daemonicky » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:46 pm

Electro wrote:AAS = Area Awareness System

Basically just convex volumes filling up the level to be used as navigational data. 90% of the time it's wasted as they're just walls, good for water and things. (simply talking about comparison to navmesh which is purely ground information)


Hm, AAS is just some cached info in nodes of graph.

Anyway navmesh, AAS and waypoints are the pretty much the same thing. They all are graphs, they all will be searched with some A* or other graph searching algorithm. They differ only what is inside of nodes (point, polygon, a lot of stuff).

Electro wrote:I still want to try and implement it in QC, as I'm currently too uneducated (ie. DUMB) to implement it with anything else. Sad


Good luck then.
Think, touch, movetype, solid, traceline ...
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Re: Bots, the pros and cons, what are they for you?

Postby leileilol » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:19 pm

bots are great, because they let you have a chance on playing any deathmatch that isn't dm3
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Re: Bots, the pros and cons, what are they for you?

Postby FrikaC » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:12 pm

Well since you resurrected this thread I'd like to respond to what Lightning Hunter said, since it bothered me a bit: I'm sorry you regret making the waypoints :( It really made my week when you released those.

FrikBot doesn't just fight to the death no matter the weapon, there's some more subtle stuff going on. If they think they're going to lose the fight they will resume their normal navigation behavior, the idea being they should be led out of the area of the fight (they don't explicitly flee, because computing a new path would take time). But at any rate, I had always intended for FrikBot to be a platform for modders to make bots that play their games, as such I didn't go deep into the gameplay specific behaviors in case they became irrelevant or conflicting with other mod's gameplay, rather I went after the things that would be needed for a bot library: physics emulation, pluginability and navigation.

Everyone complains about FrikBot being too accurate with the shotgun. Apart from Skill 3 which is intended to be silly and aimbotish (for the people that, for some reason, liked "super difficult" Cronos Bot), I don't really agree. Yes they get lucky with the shotgun from time to time (particularly on skill 2), but then so do real players. Real players don't really try to duke it out with the shotgun, ever, and that is maybe the disconnect. On skills 0 and 1 they are rubbish at aiming.
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Re: Bots, the pros and cons, what are they for you?

Postby Lightning Hunter » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:51 am

Sorry it took so long to notice your post, FrikaC. I was partially joking when I talked about being able to go back and replace the time spent creating waypoints with something else. I had a lot of fun creating the waypoints, so don't get me wrong. I was only disappointed, because nobody commented on version 2 of the waypoint pack I created (the thread has 0 responses on this forum, and just a few over at Quakeone). I think the only person that took any notice or interest was Monster. This made me feel that nobody cared, which was a shame after all the work I put into the pack.

You really did create the best bot for Quake, so you have nothing to be ashamed of. I just wish someone would take the game play even further with the Frikbots. With some small improvements, I think the Firkbots could even beat the Unreal Tournament bots - which I still feel are the best ever created. I guess after observing the Frikbots in spectator mode in 500 maps, I started to see their flaws in the game play department. They are still better than all the other Quake bots, and I consider them to be the second best bots after the UT bots. I just think they could have been #1 with some fixes and tweaks!

Oh, and about the shotgun accuracy, I think the issue is with the skill level balance in general. For me, skill 2 is just too easy. That only leaves skill 3 for a challenge. However, skill 3 is not very fun when the bots get most of their kills with the shotgun. In fact, I'd rather face a skill 3 bot wielding any weapon but the shotgun, minus the thunderbolt gun. They can kill you in a matter of seconds with the shotgun. At least when they have an RL, you get a chance to avoid the rockets.
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