Pak0.pak and Pak1.pak using OpenQuartz, id Map Sources

[Spirit]

**PEACE**

[CocoT]

/me shouts from his Quake retirement home, holding a hearing aid

Whaaat?

[Spike]

I believe cheapalert's complaints are along these lines:
looking at a piece of source code and retyping it word for word is identical to copying, thus looking at a texture and creating a higher res copy is also copying.
Whilst you claim it to be from scratch, it still must match the texture size and relative positions of small details that the original has.
Thus to be free of cheapalert's complaints you must create images totally from scratch which in no way match the quake images and do not convey the same theme/feel. Which of course defeats the whole point in doing so in the first place.
Same applies to models.

Its a matter of interpretation and methodology.

Oh, also...

from the quake retexture/remodal project, via up2's earlier post

However if you use these textures in any way, even as a base, you MUST mention the URL and name of this project and our Team in the credits. No exceptions.

from http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html listed under 'gpl incompatable'.

XFree86 1.1 License

This is a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license, incompatible with the GNU GPL because of its requirements that apply to all documentation in the distribution that contain acknowledgements.

full xfree86 1.1 license: http://www.xfree.org/4.4.0/LICENSE4.html

3. The end-user documentation included with the redistribution, if any, must include the following acknowledgment: "This product includes software developed by The XFree86 Project, Inc (http://www.xfree86.org/) and its contributors", in the same place and form as other third-party acknowledgments. Alternately, this acknowledgment may appear in the software itself, in the same form and location as other such third-party acknowledgments.

This is akin to the 'Quake Retexture/Remodel' FAQ answer's requirement that it be mentioned in the credits.

Additionally, your FAQ does not mention any permissions to use the textures in commercial projects, only that non-commercial usage is allowed (The GPL requires that commercial usage be allowed for further derivatives, even if Baker is strictly non-commercial).

So even if the textures/models are derived in no way from quake content (even in a mental sense), then the textures are still incompatible with the GPL and cannot legally be used with the map sources.

Ouchie.

up2, you really need to give those textures a formal license which does not seperate commercial/non-commercial usage, and remove that credits clause, or we'll never get free quake.

[Sajt]

Well at least it's a good thing id software doesn't care.

[leileilol]

Hey cool, a display of ignorance on soapbox, i love these

Don't you agree, Mr. "Let's Make Quake" and Mr. "Hi, I am cloning Quake III Arena"?

/And using Quake 1 maps in your Quake 3 Arena clone, to boot.

I don't scavenge non-Free material and create a Trepidation or eQuake out of it. I am pretty damn cautious.

The Quake map sources are GPL'd, and OA is entirely GPL'd, I don't see an issue in that.

ALL of our textures and models are 100% (read: COMPLETELY) from scratch.

If you say so

But the GPL is about freedom.

The freedom to copy and derive and distribute without any restrictions, not for the 'freedom' of infringing copyright. If Stallman was here, he'd slap you in the face for misinterpreting.

Well at least it's a good thing id software doesn't care.

ToddH does. He still deals with Doom piracy too

[Baker]

SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!
SHAZAM!!!!

Dear Mr. Hollenshead (2:25 PM),

I have assembled a total conversion using no ID Software content (media, textures, music) that utilizes the Quake engine (GPL), the ID map source codes for Quake which were released under the GPL, simple GPL textures created from scratch, and models and sounds primarily from OpenQuartz (a GPL project), plus some freely available sounds and some models made from scratch by the Quake community.

This total conversion package contains no ID content or media, no references to ID trademarks or and doesn't resemble Quake in look or feel.

Being based on the GPL'd Quake engine and GPL'd map sources, compiled mostly as-is, is capable of connecting to Quake servers.

Is this permissible to do as it is a total conversion using no ID software content?

Todd Hollenshead to me (2:48 PM)

As long as the only "id content" used is what was released under the GPL, then you should be fine.

tsh

Mr. Hollenshead, (2:49 PM)

Thank you very much, sir. That is what we are doing.

Baker

[Entar]

doesn't resemble Quake in look or feel

If you're distributing the Quake Retexturing Project files, I don't think that's a true statement. /me directs your attention to the images in CheapAlert's post.

[leileilol]

yeah, twisting the truth doesn't warrant a straight answer. He hasn't even seen this thread

[Baker]

If you're distributing the Quake Retexturing Project files, I don't think that's a true statement. /me directs your attention to the images in CheapAlert's post.

Where did you get that from? That was Megazoid's post, not mine. Up2nogood posted in this thread, doesn't have anything to do with me. I never said I thought the QRP textures were "ok"; they clearly are not.

I've not mentioned the QRP textures in any of my posts nor used them, except when addressing Megazoids post. What the foobars does this have to do what I did --- nothing!

Some of you guys really have a short attention span. Wake up Entar I know CheapAlert can't follow a thread, so I'm not worried about him.

---------------------


Map Download: Beta 3 Maps - 10 MB +/-

1. I have rendered the maps I have made completely incompatible with replacement textures by changing 100% of the names (except for water, slime, lava which can't be changed due to the map compiler).

2. I have removed all single player entities, making them useless for single player.

3. I have removed all weapons and items.

I did all of that this morning several hours ago.

This does exactly what I said and nothing more.

And yes, I do intend to abide by all the appropriate license agreements for GPL/non-GPL even if it must be a separate download.

Although you may not personally like me, CheapAlert, I keep my word to a "T". Those that know me, know I am painfully honest and unwilling to lie in any circumstances.

[Entar]

That was Megazoid's post, not mine. Up2nogood posted in this thread, doesn't have anything to do with me. I never said I thought the QRP textures were "ok"; they clearly are not.

Ah, ok, misunderstood that. Just checkin

[frag.machine]

2. I have removed all single player entities, making them useless for single player.

3. I have removed all weapons and items.

I just wondering why doing that instead of simply distributing an embedded progs.dat just removing the undesired entities (so, if for example I decided to contribute to the SP portion of the project with a monster_yeti to replace all shamblers I could just add my .mdl and progs.dat to the project). AFAIK there's no restriction to use these entities either in the original id maps or new ones.

Mmmm... Monster yeti...

[Baker]

2. I have removed all single player entities, making them useless for single player.

3. I have removed all weapons and items.

I just wondering why doing that instead of simply distributing an embedded progs.dat just removing the undesired entities (so, if for example I decided to contribute to the SP portion of the project with a monster_yeti to replace all shamblers I could just add my .mdl and progs.dat to the project). AFAIK there's no restriction to use these entities either in the original id maps or new ones.

Mmmm... Monster yeti...

I can always adjust things in the future for ideas like single player without monsters that resemble Quake using legal monster models and stuff.

My first goal is creating a prototype and getting the ball rolling and then thinking about how to keep options like this open.

My main concern has always been the depopulation of the community and the absolute lack of viable options to increase the size. If the population declines too much, then there are no modders, engine coders, mappers or anyone else because there is no audience and Quake dies in collapse.

[Baker]

I believe cheapalert's complaints are along these lines:
looking at a piece of source code and retyping it word for word is identical to copying, thus looking at a texture and creating a higher res copy is also copying.
Whilst you claim it to be from scratch, it still must match the texture size and relative positions of small details that the original has.
Thus to be free of cheapalert's complaints you must create images totally from scratch which in no way match the quake images and do not convey the same theme/feel. Which of course defeats the whole point in doing so in the first place.
Same applies to models.

Its a matter of interpretation and methodology.

Oh, also...

from the quake retexture/remodal project, via up2's earlier post

However if you use these textures in any way, even as a base, you MUST mention the URL and name of this project and our Team in the credits. No exceptions.

from http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html listed under 'gpl incompatable'.

XFree86 1.1 License

This is a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license, incompatible with the GNU GPL because of its requirements that apply to all documentation in the distribution that contain acknowledgements.

full xfree86 1.1 license: http://www.xfree.org/4.4.0/LICENSE4.html

3. The end-user documentation included with the redistribution, if any, must include the following acknowledgment: "This product includes software developed by The XFree86 Project, Inc (http://www.xfree86.org/) and its contributors", in the same place and form as other third-party acknowledgments. Alternately, this acknowledgment may appear in the software itself, in the same form and location as other such third-party acknowledgments.

This is akin to the 'Quake Retexture/Remodel' FAQ answer's requirement that it be mentioned in the credits.

Additionally, your FAQ does not mention any permissions to use the textures in commercial projects, only that non-commercial usage is allowed (The GPL requires that commercial usage be allowed for further derivatives, even if Baker is strictly non-commercial).

So even if the textures/models are derived in no way from quake content (even in a mental sense), then the textures are still incompatible with the GPL and cannot legally be used with the map sources.

Ouchie.

up2, you really need to give those textures a formal license which does not seperate commercial/non-commercial usage, and remove that credits clause, or we'll never get free quake.

Well, there are a lot of things to figure out but my baseline idea doesn't involve any replacement texture at this point.

After I get part of this underway, I'll talk to more people like Up2nogood and others.

I don't scavenge non-Free material and create a Trepidation or eQuake out of it. I am pretty damn cautious.

I know you are. I only troll you a little because you do it to me. I have a great of respect for your project ethics.

[Aquashark]

i think this debate is pointless.

if id software would be so nit-picking they:
- wouldn't have released the sources for everything in the first place
- would have sued the makers of Generations Arena (for Q3) & Generations (for Q2) a long time ago
- would have sued MVDSV makers for making their server have an auto-download feature of maps which allows to download maps not included in the shareware version (this is debatable)

plus: look at Quake2! it still has some retail copies in stores, but you can play the multiplayer for free just by downloading Quake2 demo + 3.20 patch. if id software would care that much it wouldn't allow such a thing to happen.

on the other hand Quake1 has no retail copies in stores (just rarities on ebay or so) and has engine & map sources released..

[Baker]

The one way is like being an illegal immigrant with fake papers, knowing almost no one cares, but having a burden you are lugging around, whether consciously or subconsciously.

The second way is like being made a citizen, knowing you can always walk in the front door.

I'd rather walk thru the front door.