Quake MOD - In The Shadows

[sock]

I played a bit of the start map up to the amulet (where the [spoiler!] fresh wave of guards cornered me)-
1. Monster pathfinding and grouping together is uncanny. It is startling to see the fiend behind you after trying to lose it.
2. ...but sometimes monsters take the long way around a loop instead of direct path.
3. Seemed I was getting snagged too easily by geometry in curved corridors, maybe on the torches that are mounted low.
4. Lighting is well balanced- atmospheric without being too dark in any area.
5. It wasn't clear initially that stealth mode wasn't immediately available, but deeper into the start map than the other maps. Thought I was missing something near the spawn point.
6. As a noob to the mod, I'd say the stealth mode tutorial was right on target. Made it clear how to play in an short time. Also great that it was integrated into the level progression vs. a separate training level. Obviously light-years ahead of a "readme".
7. Would like to see additional texts for the books, really enjoyed reading them.

Thanks for the feedback

Sometimes as you have seen they do not go the most direct way and that is usually lack of AI nodes for them to find. What areas did you noticed them going the long way?
In the next version I am going to specify to the player that they need to find the Amulet of Shadows to start stealth, at the moment it is very confusing.
I originally had a short tutorial and tons of text in the readme file, most people wanted it the other way round and the tutorial get more information instead.

What engine did you use? Did you record any demo's? How was the architecture and coloured lighting?
You are the first person to say you want more books! Did all of the book text display properly? I know some engines can cut it short? A lot of the books in the start map have alternative text when the shadow amulet is enabled. You get the amulet when you come back to the start map again.
Please let me know how you get on with the next maps? whether you play then normal quake or stealth?
I know you often rework the palette for the super8 engine, do you have plans for this MOD? Is there any extra files I can include with the MOD for this?

[sock]

@taniwha, I think I have got a bit further with the QF install (It does feel like I am just guessing what to do)

For some reason the engine always starts with a tiny window and I cannot grab any of the window edges to resize it. There is no menu and for some reason all the vid commands are read only (which is odd). I try 'vid_height', 'vid_width', 'vid_fullscreen' and nothing works, seem to be stuck with a tiny window.

I eventually got the engine to recognize my MOD (I had a spelling mistake on the command line) and then got more errors:

quakeforce initialized
vid_updatefullscreen: error setting fullscreen
couldn't exec autoexec.cfg
findfile: can't find menu.dat
menu load: could not load menu.dat
findfile: can't fine net.png
findfile: can't find net.tga
findfile: can't find net.pcx

It looks like the engine is missing menu.dat. I went back to the QF directory and under the subfolder QF found a zip file called 'menu.dat.gz'. Now this is where it is so wrong, you have a zip file without a .zip extension and when I looked at the directory I assumed it was some weird config file and ignored it. You seriously need installation instructions for this engine, the files are all over the place and this is just frustrating.

Unzipped file 'menu.dat.gz' and got a new file menu.dat
Moved the menu.dat to the root of my quake directory with the engine

Now I use several engines to test things, they all use the same config file in my MOD directory and generally don't do much to this file. QuakeForge has re-written the whole file into a format that no other engine understands! All the binds have changed to 'in_bind imt_mod K_TAB "+showscores". When I run another engine like Fitz it produces tons of errors and resets the config file back to Quake default because it thinks it is corrupt. Then all my keyboard config is reset, I lose mlook and anything else I have set in the config file.

This is not good, if the engine is going to re-write my config, why not just create a special config for this engine only? No other engine can read this file so it might as well be setup for QuakeForge only.

Back to running the shortcut with the menu.dat file in the root of the quake directory with the QF engine. Produces the same error, cannot find menu.dat file. So I move the menu.dat file to the MOD directory and run the shortcut again.

Fatal Error:
menu.dat: PR_Check_Opcodes: non-zero global index in invalid operand (statement 7: call2)
Stuck, can't get engine to go any further.

[taniwha]

Sock: hmm, ouch?

* taniwha falls over with various pointed sticks jutting from his body.

ok. One thing: there was no need to unzip menu.dat.gz: QF does that for you (it even knows to look for foo.bar.gz when asked for foo.bar). The problem was that the QF directory itself wasn't in your quake-root. *sigh* more docs to write.

Can't grab window edges: by design, but yes, even I consider the inability to resize the window in game to be a bug. It can be done on the command line (one way is with -width X -height Y).

The "vid_updatefullscreen: error setting fullscreen" might be a useful clue. I'll look into it.

Config file: yeah . I'm sorry I forgot to warn you. Anyway, Deek and I are discussing ways to fix it. Not a solution, but sed should be able to mostly restore your config (I jest. While true, it's my responsibility to fix the problem, not yours).

Now, that opcode check is just plain weird. I looked at the menu.dat.gz in the zip and Not only is statement 7's "invalid" operand 0, statement 7 is an "if" rather and "call2" (which, btw, isn't used in the progs: rcall2 would have been used). I suspect the file got corrupted somehow (line ending conversion? how did you move/copy/unzip it?) Try dropping the original menu.dat.gz in the right place (after deleting the problem menu.dat)

A bit of good news: Deek's come up with a solution* for the config file issue that looks really good, but we (hah, probably I) have to fix a few issues to make it work. When "exec config.cfg" is give, if qfconfig.cfg exists exec that instead (and always write qfconfig.cfg). The problem is, id1/qfconfig.cfg should not override qw/config.cfg. QF still suffers from the mixed up extra data problem, so this will be killing a few scraggs with one rocket .

* I showed him your post and we were discussing things while I was writing my reply.

[taniwha]

Sock: good news: I found the cause of that weird opcode error.

Code: Select all

typedef struct dstatement_s {
    pr_opcode_e op:16;
    pr_ushort_t a,b,c;
} dstatement_t;


This has worked for a very long time in gcc, and still does in Linux. Unfortunately (for me), in some recent version of gcc, gcc changed its structure layout rules for windows targets (to better comply with microsoft's ABI). dstatement_t went from 8 bytes to 12. However, gcc very kindly provides an attribute to create structures using gcc's normal rules.

0.7.0 worked but 0.7.1 did not work because I upgraded my mingw environment between releases.

And some more good news: I can do basic testing in wine. Including vid_fullscreen

[revelator]

latest gcc releases had a bunch of changes indeed small warning gcc-4.7.0 is not abi compatible with previous gcc 4.7.2 fixes some of that and 4.8.0 takes it one step further but also changes a ton of things.
had the same problems sock had with the menu.dat i had to copy it to id1 before it would read the darn thing and atleast on windows it seems putting the qf dir in the quake folder does not do the trick (i guess theres something in the routine to unpack the tar.gz that screws up on windows).

[qbism]

Sometimes as you have seen they do not go the most direct way and that is usually lack of AI nodes for them to find. What areas did you noticed them going the long way?
In the next version I am going to specify to the player that they need to find the Amulet of Shadows to start stealth, at the moment it is very confusing.
I originally had a short tutorial and tons of text in the readme file, most people wanted it the other way round and the tutorial get more information instead.

What engine did you use? Did you record any demo's? How was the architecture and coloured lighting?
You are the first person to say you want more books! Did all of the book text display properly? I know some engines can cut it short? A lot of the books in the start map have alternative text when the shadow amulet is enabled. You get the amulet when you come back to the start map again.
Please let me know how you get on with the next maps? whether you play then normal quake or stealth?
I know you often rework the palette for the super8 engine, do you have plans for this MOD? Is there any extra files I can include with the MOD for this?

Demo: I uploaded a demo here: http://super8.qbism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/start1.zip that will playback on the current Super8 engine here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/qbism/files/latest/download?source=files

Monster path: at 2:30 on the demo, see the hknight walk around the wall away from player.

Geometry snag?: I got cornered so I'm blaming the geometry... at 4:47 I realize I'm backed against a pillar and try to slide away, but can't get far enough out before getting pinned by hknight ("that's for embarrassing my brother!").

Books: Well, a greater quantity of books is not necessary, but I enjoy the atmosphere and humor of the text. Some of the redundant books could get different stories. As far as I know, none of the text was cut off.

Palette: I'll try making a custom palette. Mod colors feature greenish-yellow lighting and fog, with red/oranges also important. One strategy would be to allocate a majority of colors to those accents. BTW, 'Amon26' just did a great series of Quake palettes. I think pal3 looks good with ITS https://www.box.com/s/fmxggg17zwt43vaodoew

Lighting: Shot showing colored lighting and fog-

[ceriux]

that does look pretty nice, problem i noticed in qbism though is its kinda hard to find shadows? you notice in your pic that its very bright pretty much everywhere.

[sock]

@qbism, thanks for the demo and engine link. I downloaded the engine and played the demo. The colours do look different to the Fitz engine and everything feels brighter. I turned off the fog and it did not seem to make much difference. The lighting system I used relies on the light map being overbright, do you cap the lighting levels? I increased the gamma but it just made everything dark, the lighting hot spots seem to be missing. Some of the models do not loop properly, the torches are lerping back to the first frame, I assume this is an engine change?

I watched the demo and loved the blood particles that drop to the floor from the sword fighting, very cool. I especially like how it goes up the walls as well. I can fix the AI going in the wrong direction in the library area, that is an AI volume not covering the room properly. The screen fade on the books seems to be missing, I assume 'nv_cshift' command is different in this engine?

[sock]

Been busy replacing/upgrading existing Quake models to reduce the various skin problems.

[qbism]

@qbism, thanks for the demo and engine link. I downloaded the engine and played the demo. The colours do look different to the Fitz engine and everything feels brighter. I turned off the fog and it did not seem to make much difference. The lighting system I used relies on the light map being overbright, do you cap the lighting levels? I increased the gamma but it just made everything dark, the lighting hot spots seem to be missing. Some of the models do not loop properly, the torches are lerping back to the first frame, I assume this is an engine change?

I watched the demo and loved the blood particles that drop to the floor from the sword fighting, very cool. I especially like how it goes up the walls as well. I can fix the AI going in the wrong direction in the library area, that is an AI volume not covering the room properly. The screen fade on the books seems to be missing, I assume 'nv_cshift' command is different in this engine?

I've used FitzQuake in the past as benchmark for color/brightness but Super8 settings have either become out-of-whack or the defaults don't look good with these maps. I'll take a look at it.
Does FitzQuake have a "no animation interpolation" flag? I don't have the code handy ATM. I recall FQ is coded not to interpolate automatic animations like torches.
The particles are based on Engoo, with some horizontal velocity added to stick to walls.

[sock]

Does FitzQuake have a "no animation interpolation" flag?

Not as far as I am aware, the looping of the torch model is just an animation group defined in the model file.

I wanted to do a screenshot comparison between fitz and super8 engines, but when I take a screenshot in super8 it produces a strange pcx file. When I load the pcx in PhotoShop the image is greyscale and the pixel aspect ratio is set to a custom size (I have a wide screen setup, 1920x1080) Also the screenshot is 960x540 in size which is half the size of my screen.

When I spawn in the start map of my MOD the player is facing 90 degree's but the start marker specifies 45. Can the engine cope with odd angle spawn entities?

[metlslime]

Does FitzQuake have a "no animation interpolation" flag? I don't have the code handy ATM. I recall FQ is coded not to interpolate automatic animations like torches.
The particles are based on Engoo, with some horizontal velocity added to stick to walls.

There is a cvar which is just a list of filenames for models to NOT lerp. Adding custom torch models to this list would disable lerping for those models. It's a clunky way to do it but i didn't know of another way. Ideally it would be a new flag on the mdl file, but of course that would break file compatability.

[qbism]

Regarding spawn orientation, I'm not sure why player isn't spawning in correct orientation, whereas monsters are.
Super8 has "vid_stretch_by_2" on by default. Most people are finding annoying or unattractive so in future I'll leave it off by default. However, this should not affect pcx files which open flawlessly in a superior graphics program (GIMP, LOL). Below are screenshot comparisons between Super8 and FQ Mark V. Both are set to 1.0 gamma. FQMV texturemode is gl_nearest. These were taken at a native res of 1600x900 and scaled down 1/2. Observations:
1. Wow, super8 really needs some aspect correction.
2. Color match are good but lightmap is washed-out. Shaded areas under arches for example.
3. super8 fog is not as dense.
4. FQMV fiend is under-lit in the shot. I noticed monsters flash from bright to dark k as they move around the map.

FQ:


S8:


FQ:


S8:

[ceriux]

think super8 looks good, but so does your mods native engine. i think they're just too different styles really. i could agree that in super8 the shadows might look a little nicer if they were more dense but (also my opinion) thats purely because its more of a stealth game and it would make the maps feel more darker and more appealing to stealth gameplay.

i could see a game with a similar theme to ITS though looking awesome (and feeling right) in an engine like super8.

also will ITS ever be open source ? possibly including the mapping textures ?

[sock]

This is what the screenshot files look like in PhotoShop CS5 :-
http://www.simonoc.com/images/misc/super8_screenshot_inps.jpg
I have seen this before, are you creating special palette indexed PCX files? As you can see from my link above, the screenshots are not much use for me.

For some reason the Super8 screenshots lack contrast, there is no light/dark, everything feels uniform like an ambient light has been applied to the whole scene. I will have to load other maps and see what it looks like but the lighting feels wrong to me. I do realize that every engine wants to do things different and I understand that. If this is what you want from the engine, then leave it. There is no reason why every engine should be the same.

The monsters going from light to dark in Fitz engines is a problem, but it is worse in the Mark V engine with map models going pure black as well. I spoke to Baker about this but I can't remember if he had time to fix it. The version of Mark V I test with still has this problem. I have not noticed the problem with the original Fitz.

ITS will eventually be open source, I plan to release the source code, map files and texture WAD files once I have finished the MOD. This is a demo, a work in progress and I want to finish the mod first before everyone re-uses the assets.