John Carmack on modding

[Dr. Shadowborg]

But yes, due to the scale and work required, making a total conversion is likely no longer feasible. And I agree with Shadowborg that they haven't made it exactly easy for modders.

This requires a long hard look at what makes developing TCs hard in old and modern games, I don't think it's as simple as "We have to make so many more pixels and polygons now!"

Come on, Quake modding was hell to begin with, just look at the sorry state of mdl making tools and quirky bsp map editors right now, Quake modding has never been easy, high poly or low poly doesn't matter, it's the tools that matter.

That's what I mean about the lack of ease. The bsp map editors aren't really the big issue, just look at the multitude of third party maps availible for quake. (In fact, quake is probably second only to the original doom in terms of number of maps availible now. Possibly even taking first place now.)

The biggest problem is and always will be the lack of a really decent FREE model editor.

[Sajt]

On the subject of John Carmack's comments I'd like to say that to me, it doesn't really matter. The code aspect of making mods hasn't really gotten that much more complex (if you know the languages it is coded in). I could basically do what I do in modding for any game, if I really wanted to.

But yes, due to the scale and work required, making a total conversion is likely no longer feasible. And I agree with Shadowborg that they haven't made it exactly easy for modders.

I for one share Darryl Atchison's hope that Quake would usher in an era of 'toolkit' games, and though some titles have gone that way (Unreal and NWN spring to mind, both come with comprehensive editing utilities), far too many, especially from id's side of things have gone the route of less editability.

I agree somewhat. It's true that game behaviour hasn't gotten any more complex in the last ten years. However the code has gotten more complex. You'll notice that HL2's gamecode is 500,000 lines, over a dozen times the amount of QC code in Quake. But it doesn't do a whole lot more. Excessive software engineering has probably alienated a lot of modders to the point that creating much more than a minimod or weapons conversion could take years. Nobody seriously thinks of making their own game in HL2. They thinking of making a HL2-ish shooter with a few changes.

I think modding as we know it, the golden age of modding, is dying, and is being reduced to its origins - replacing Castle Wolfenstein's sprites with Smurfs, and such.

And I'm not sure what can be done about it...

[Entar]

I think modding as we know it, the golden age of modding, is dying, and is being reduced to its origins - replacing Castle Wolfenstein's sprites with Smurfs, and such.

And I'm not sure what can be done about it...

For starters, the community could work on a better .mdl editor if people say that's needed. Wouldn't be that difficult, would it? I say the community because that way people could give their say as to what should go in, layout, etc.

[Sajt]

Well, I wasn't only talking about Quake modding.

Vanilla Quake modding isn't plausible anymore. Unless you only want your mod played by the Quake community. You need a better model format, and a better map format or at least editor. And some documentation. Then you have a nice modding platform. Then all you need is people willing to mod Quake. Which doesn't seem to interest the loads of people interested in cloning CS. By the way, I say screw them.

If people can accept that their mods aren't going to par the quality of ET:QW when they're done, then maybe there is still life.

[Dr. Shadowborg]

Well, I wasn't only talking about Quake modding.

Vanilla Quake modding isn't plausible anymore. Unless you only want your mod played by the Quake community. You need a better model format, and a better map format or at least editor. And some documentation. Then you have a nice modding platform. Then all you need is people willing to mod Quake. Which doesn't seem to interest the loads of people interested in cloning CS. By the way, I say screw them.

If people can accept that their mods aren't going to par the quality of ET:QW when they're done, then maybe there is still life.

What you speak of with that first bit is making a whole new FPS. Until a set of standards can be adopted, and engine builds capable of running on anything the original could (and I do mean EVERYTHING, dos, windows software AND OGL/D3D), it's probably best to just stick with a model editor with a nice feature set like bones and stuff that can save in .mdl, .md2, and .md3. In all probability, the number one cause of mod death is the difficulty curve in terms of new models, immediatly followed by lack of levels. (With the principal exceptions being mods that rely exclusivly on levels, in which case, lack of levels becomes number one.)

That second bit...

1. Anybody who expects to make something that would be accepted as "commercial" quality without a massive team and resources, is just plain dreaming. That said, there's no excuse for not trying your hardest to excell quality wise. Nobody who is actually going to play your mod will be expecting "commercial" quality, and modders should always keep this in mind. Strive your hardest to make something at bare minimum you would accept to play, and go from there.

2. Anybody who's interested in just cloning CS, especially when it's known that there's at least one good CS clone out, probably isn't truly serious about modding.