Engine standards for mod compatibility

[Chip]

Baker said:

but likely there is a mod that is open source and uses it except no one knows the name of the mod or where the download is because the site of whatever mod is dead and only lives on leileilol's hard drive.

Now, there is a mod repository with all lost mods. Still WIP, though.

@Rook, what engine are you using for that rain? And what parameters?

[Baker]

@Rook, what engine are you using for that rain? And what parameters?

In Qrack ( http://www.quakeone.com/qrack ) , gl_rain 1 activates a very well done rain effect that only emits from areas with exposed sky.



Qrack has a lot of awesome features visually. My favorites in no particular order ...

1) gl_rain
2) coronas! My favorite feature of the engine and in the newest version works perfectly.
3) gl_nightmaremode ... I really like this one. I'd love this effect to be used in a game when a player is walking through the "Astral Plane" or some such gateway dimension between dimensions.
4) Power up shells. I'd love to use this as EF_FORCEFIELD with a yellow powerup shell or some such thing for a single player enemy who is invulnerable or heavily shielded from damage.
5) Nail trails. An accumulation buffer/motion blurry effect on nails.
6) Qrack flames for modded weapons like the lava gun are really incredible. If only someone made a flamethrower model.

Wishlist: gl_snow !!

See also: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 421618102#

(The incredible NetQuake rocket shot @ 1:35 is, of course, performed by moi. )

[Urre]

-map limits: i won't bother listing them all, but essentially, if i'm able to compile the map in aguirRe's tools, then it should be loadable.
i consider fitzquake to be adequate (although i have already reached the limits in v085 and had to scale back a couple of maps).
if fitzquake double it's limits from 085, i would be very happy.
also: don't neglect the max_ambient_sound_channels (or whatever it's called). i'm talking about that error that shows up when you have a lot of ambient sounds in your map which stops further ambient sounds from playing. fitzquake still uses the old limit (or the increased limit is still too low)

Wait, fitz doesn't support arguirRe fully? Then someone needs to make an arguirRe compatible list for me for this standard. Or are arguirRe limits considered crazy high and hard to implement?

[mh]

Wait, fitz doesn't support arguirRe fully? Then someone needs to make an arguirRe compatible list for me for this standard. Or are arguirRe limits considered crazy high and hard to implement?

Not particularly, I've implemented them (and the protocols). The main problem is that there's lots of fiddly little places in the code that you need to catch, and you can never be certain that you have them all; I only discovered the SV_HullPointContents/etc fixes comparatively recently despite having the guts of the code in for about 6 months.

Another difficulty is the protocols and getting them to coexist peacefully with each other, with protocol 15, and with the Fitz protocol, and allow toggling between different protocols when spawning a new server.

If you're only concerned about SP you can just change the PROTOCOL_VERSION and do whatever you want, of course.

Anyway, this is another area that definitely needs documenting so that everyone can pick up on it.

[r00k]

@Rook, what engine are you using for that rain? And what parameters?

gl_fogdensity 0.1 gl_fogstart 1 gl_fogend 2048 gl_rain 1

Qrack uses the QMB particle engine, and the rain is something I added with some help from MH (surf->polygon->midpoint).
Oddly the whole rain is intermediate mode not using shaders but looks better IMHO than rain on hl2

MH: Yes, protocol limitation documentations help! Maybe tied into the QSB 1.x could be a compatible minimum for those limits that REALLY do not need a new protocol number. So without QSB you could obviously guarantee that stock quake limits are met, QSB supports atleast values XYZ and then some protocol flags for specific engine/mod support?

example

This Quake(tm) engine modification supports a minimum of
Quake Standards Base .1.0 (January, 2010) engine limits.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
MAX_HANDLES 100
MINIMUM_WIN_MEMORY 0x02000000 (32Mb)
MAXIMUM_WIN_MEMORY 0x08000000 (128Mb)
CON_TEXTSIZE 262144
MAX_FARCLIP 16384
MAX_STATIC_ENTITIES 1024
MAX_LIGHTMAPS 256
NUMSTACKSURFACES 8192
NUMSTACKEDGES 8192
MAX_VISEDICTS MAX_EDICTS
MAX_DATAGRAM 32768
MAX_STACK_DEPTH 256
MAX_EFRAGS 2048
MAX_CHANNELS 512
MAX_DYNAMIC_CHANNELS 128
MAX_TEMP_ENTITIES 1024
DYNAMIC_SIZE 262144
MAX_BMODEL_VERTS 1000
MAX_BMODEL_EDGES 3000
MAXALIASVERTS 4096
MAXALIASTRIS 4096
MAX_LBM_HEIGHT 1024
ABSOLUTE_MIN_PARTICLES 1024
MAX_PARTICLES 16384
MAX_BEAMS 32
MAX_DLIGHTS 64
-------------------------------------------------------------------

[revelator]

aye takes a while to catch the full list of fixes in aquires engine, i used it myself in realm but tbh im not even sure i got everything.

[Supa]

Just why exactly did this thread, which was supposed to be about making a standard out of what we already have, turn into an engine feature request free for all?

[Dr. Shadowborg]

Just why exactly did this thread, which was supposed to be about making a standard out of what we already have, turn into an engine feature request free for all?

Because if your going to do a standard in the first place, you should make sure and do it right by covering at least basic no-brainers like alpha for map windows and screen tints for effects and custom fluid colors?

Don't forget Urre didn't say that this was about making standards out of features that are pre-existant exclusively, he said and I quote: "I'd like all of you to start listing features you'd want to see in standards"

It's up to the guys who actually determine what makes it into the standard to decide from the ideas that people suggest here. Or at least that's what I've gathered.

[leileilol]

Well some want standard novelty cvars like snow or rain in all levels. That doesn't belong in a standards thread and is completely missing the point. A standard would be best defined within map properties rather than user's cvars.

And the things I suggested... it's not like it's supposed to be GLSL rendering right?

[Team Xlink]

Fog is a very touchy subject actually.

Ignore the gamma, bugs and other oddities but look how different the fog is rendered. With differences like that a "this engine supports fog" standard is worthless. It needs to be remotely the same to be of use.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files ... rreneh.jpg
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files ... ots/dp.jpg
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files ... s/fitz.jpg

standard defaults for density start end etc... for me my defaults look like this, you can barely see the doorways in the distance begging your interest...

That is the best looking Quake start map I have ever seen. If all of that is done engine side, I think that would be a worthy thing to have.

As for standards.

MOVETYPE_WALK on non players

I would gladly create a proper tutorial for this if enough people want it. I for one enjoy using it with AI.

Proper MOVETYPE_FOLLOW
Once again I would gladly create a proper tutorial on support for this.

This has already been mentioned so I second it:

Universal Settings.

Such as:

GameDir - Game Commands

Demo Recording Folders

External Texture Folders

Cvar and cmd list, these are dead easy and non operating system specific. With the tutorial on the archive of Quakesrc it makes me wonder why there wouldn't be this in any modern engine.

Rotating brush support, once again this is another amazing feature that is in a tutorial on Quakesrc. It is a really good feature for mappers, even I have found good use for it a few times.

SkyBox support, this one is more for the effects and mappers but it is still a really good feature and I can see the cons and pros of it being a standard so I am just throwing it out there.

Last but not least the ProQuake Nat Fix. I am astounded by the problems it has caused. With Nat fix comments all over ProQuake and the integrated code it has bothered so many engine coders.

I praise Baker for finding it and am still in confusion on the one line Nat fix with the comments all over other engines.

[goldenboy]

To become a little more engine fest free for all, maybe those features should be considered for a later version of QSB.

- rain
- increase the maximum map boundaries limit from +-4096 to +-8192

As I said a couple times now, though, I also think that the first step should be *mostly* restricted to things that already exist and are reasonably simple to implement for engine coders.

Be nice to the engine coders, folks, we can't just magically make more in our tummies.

http://logo.cafepress.com/6/1221917.6985506.jpg

(We'd have to wait a long time, at least)

[Baker]

SkyBox support, this one is more for the effects and mappers but it is still a really good feature and I can see the cons and pros of it being a standard so I am just throwing it out there.

What would be good is standardized skybox support in software renderers too. aguirRe WinQuake supports PCX skyboxes.

Rhetorical question: Isn't it funny that the singular thing in Quake single player releases that is 24-bit are the skyboxes?

Just why exactly did this thread, which was supposed to be about making a standard out of what we already have, turn into an engine feature request free for all?

Isn't a thread proposing an enhanced engine standard an engine feature request? I'm just sayin ....

- increase the maximum map boundaries limit from +-4096 to +-8192

Out of curiosity, what map editors do and don't support that?

Does Worldcraft, for instance? Just wondering if someone knows.

[goldenboy]

Rhetorical question: Isn't it funny that the singular thing in Quake single player releases that is 24-bit are the skyboxes?

Give me a complete set of 24 bit remakes of id1, speedbase, Quake2 etc. textures, along with all their modifications that have been made over the years (idbase_ultimate.wad would be a good place to start), and I'll gladly use them.

Mappers will always need a couple modified or extra textures, though.

Edit: Quest supports > 4096 map limits, I had to pull the whole map back a couple of times in a few cases It was compiled OK, just you got a massive HOM-like effect in the engine. You couldn't cross the "line" in the engine, then. No idea about other map editors.

Edit2: These replacement textures would have to be faithful, too, ie like Starbuck's idbase set, no Rygel's and nothing with totally overdone bumpmaps and lipstick effect.

[leileilol]

Tread3D can work with huge map sizes.

The map size thing would require ripping up the protocol. It's anti-standard.

[frag.machine]

Tread3D can work with huge map sizes.

The map size thing would require ripping up the protocol. It's anti-standard.

If we are talking about a new protocol embedded in the spec, no problem.